3 ms·

This is not misleading at all, GP's point is well founded and backed by peer-reviewed literature, see [1]. I have more references if you're interested. > All v

This is not misleading at all, GP's point is well founded and backed by peer-reviewed literature, see [1]. I have more references if you're interested. > All variants right now are significantly more effective at transmission in unvaccinated individuals. Please cite your primary source(s). [1] Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/

sudosysgen 5y ago
The article you linked does not say what you think it says. It says that mutation for immune escape is possible. There has been zero mutations for immune escape, so far all mutations were for higher infectivity. Beyond that, we do know that all variants are more infective in unvaccinated individuals : http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/fileCCDCW/journal/img/cover/ffd464f2-ff7e-4bcf-8210-e7fb781fbb50.pdf#page=18 http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/fileCCDCW/journal/img/cover/ffd464... If it wasn't, it would never have out-competed the ancestral type in unvaccinated India. The OP's point was that vaccines drove mutations. So far, that has not happened. There is no variant that is more infective in vaccinated individuals but not in unvaccinated individuals, all variants are simply more effective across the board.
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  > There has been zero mutations for immune escape, so far all mutations were for higher infectivity. You're making very broad claims here that are again contradicted by the literature, see [1]. The very short paper you linked to "Transmission Dynamics of an Outbreak of the COVID-19 Delta Variant B.1.617.2" does not even discuss vaccination status. I'm inclined to believe you linked to the wrong paper - or you haven't thoroughly reviewed it yourself. I'm not interested in arguments based on logical deductions. Show me the peer-reviewed sources backing your point and I will happily read them with an open mind. [1] SARS-CoV-2 immune evasion by the B.1.427/B.1.429 variant of concern https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/06/30/science.abi7994 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/06/30/scie...
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    China had around 10% vaccination rate by the time the data was collected. You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument. Any mutation in the RBD will affect immunity. The question is whether these mutations were from selection pressure from the vaccine or for higher infectivity. Given that the evolutionary millieu had low vaccination rate and that the variants are more infective in non-vaccinated populations, we know this is not the case. If you can find an article that shows that vaccines cause evolution of variants, then post it. Otherwise, don't, I'm not interested in non-sequiturs.
    - criticaltinker 5y ago
      > If you can find an article that shows that vaccines cause evolution of variants, then post it Here are several more peer-reviwed primary sources that present strong evidence & theories supporting the fact that "vaccines cause evolution of variants" [1][2][3][4]. Note that, no one is claiming that ONLY vaccines cause evolution of variants - obviously a virus will evolve naturally through random mutation as well, and that is acknowledged in the cited sources. > You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument If you take a few minutes to read the sources I've linked to in the this thread, you will see that they corroborate everything I have stated. These ideas are relatively new in the last decade or two, so you may not have heard of them before. That does not mean they are unfounded or based on logical fallacies as you claim. > Given that the evolutionary millieu had low vaccination rate and that the variants are more infective in non-vaccinated populations, we know this is not the case. You continue to use the same unsupported points and build on them with logical deduction. I have given you plenty of counter-arguments supported by peer-reviewed literature. If you have nothing else to add to the discussion, then I will not be continuing it. [1] Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fj... [2] The adaptive evolution of virulence: a review of theoretical predictions and empirical tests https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/30EC8AB1717BF7A173CF5E051DBB498F/S003118201500092Xa_hi.pdf/_div_class__title__The_adaptive_evolution_of_virulence__a_review_of_theoretical_predictions_and_empirical_tests__div_.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c... [3] Why does drug resistance readily evolve but vaccine resistance does not? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016.2562 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016... [4] Monitor for COVID-19 vaccine resistance evolution during clinical trials https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3001000 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...

sudosysgen 5y ago

The article you linked does not say what you think it says. It says that mutation for immune escape is possible. There has been zero mutations for immune escape, so far all mutations were for higher infectivity. Beyond that, we do know that all variants are more infective in unvaccinated individuals : http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/fileCCDCW/journal/img/cover/ffd464f2-ff7e-4bcf-8210-e7fb781fbb50.pdf#page=18 http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/fileCCDCW/journal/img/cover/ffd464... If it wasn't, it would never have out-competed the ancestral type in unvaccinated India. The OP's point was that vaccines drove mutations. So far, that has not happened. There is no variant that is more infective in vaccinated individuals but not in unvaccinated individuals, all variants are simply more effective across the board.

criticaltinker 5y ago
> There has been zero mutations for immune escape, so far all mutations were for higher infectivity. You're making very broad claims here that are again contradicted by the literature, see [1]. The very short paper you linked to "Transmission Dynamics of an Outbreak of the COVID-19 Delta Variant B.1.617.2" does not even discuss vaccination status. I'm inclined to believe you linked to the wrong paper - or you haven't thoroughly reviewed it yourself. I'm not interested in arguments based on logical deductions. Show me the peer-reviewed sources backing your point and I will happily read them with an open mind. [1] SARS-CoV-2 immune evasion by the B.1.427/B.1.429 variant of concern https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/06/30/science.abi7994 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/06/30/scie...
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  China had around 10% vaccination rate by the time the data was collected. You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument. Any mutation in the RBD will affect immunity. The question is whether these mutations were from selection pressure from the vaccine or for higher infectivity. Given that the evolutionary millieu had low vaccination rate and that the variants are more infective in non-vaccinated populations, we know this is not the case. If you can find an article that shows that vaccines cause evolution of variants, then post it. Otherwise, don't, I'm not interested in non-sequiturs.
  - criticaltinker 5y ago
    > If you can find an article that shows that vaccines cause evolution of variants, then post it Here are several more peer-reviwed primary sources that present strong evidence & theories supporting the fact that "vaccines cause evolution of variants" [1][2][3][4]. Note that, no one is claiming that ONLY vaccines cause evolution of variants - obviously a virus will evolve naturally through random mutation as well, and that is acknowledged in the cited sources. > You are again posting evidence that does not back your argument If you take a few minutes to read the sources I've linked to in the this thread, you will see that they corroborate everything I have stated. These ideas are relatively new in the last decade or two, so you may not have heard of them before. That does not mean they are unfounded or based on logical fallacies as you claim. > Given that the evolutionary millieu had low vaccination rate and that the variants are more infective in non-vaccinated populations, we know this is not the case. You continue to use the same unsupported points and build on them with logical deduction. I have given you plenty of counter-arguments supported by peer-reviewed literature. If you have nothing else to add to the discussion, then I will not be continuing it. [1] Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fj... [2] The adaptive evolution of virulence: a review of theoretical predictions and empirical tests https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/30EC8AB1717BF7A173CF5E051DBB498F/S003118201500092Xa_hi.pdf/_div_class__title__The_adaptive_evolution_of_virulence__a_review_of_theoretical_predictions_and_empirical_tests__div_.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c... [3] Why does drug resistance readily evolve but vaccine resistance does not? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016.2562 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2016... [4] Monitor for COVID-19 vaccine resistance evolution during clinical trials https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3001000 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...