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The early-20th-century sci-fi novel Earth Abides is about the lives of some of the remnants of humanity after a virus wipes out most of the population. Even th

The early-20th-century sci-fi novel Earth Abides is about the lives of some of the remnants of humanity after a virus wipes out most of the population. Even then, California had a reputation for wildfires, and in the story large parts of the state burn after there are no people to fight the fires. In addition to excessive fire suppression causing fires to become ever more extreme, I suspect that the fact that people move around so much caused there to be no "living memory" of the natural conditions of an area, and thus people collectively "forgot" that their areas burn, and need fuel removal and careful management, not just fire suppression.

Enginerrrd 5y ago
In my opinion, there's also the fact that very few people know what an old growth forest looks like compared to 2nd growth in the PNW. There's a profound difference in ecosystems with new growth having tremendously more undergrowth. If you spend enough time in the forests, you'll start to see it too. The 2nd growth stuff looks and feels imbalanced.
- titzer 5y ago
  Forests take thousands upon thousands of years to mature. It can take centuries for the mix of tree species to develop to the point where the "apex" species of tree appears and then dominates the ecosystem. Ecosystems are extraordinarily complex. In my head, I see reforested areas like the Potato Jesus painting with a bonus "Mission Accomplished" banner.
  - bishoprook2 5y ago
    " Forests take thousands upon thousands of years to mature." I can't be too many thousands of years. It doesn't take too many thousands to completely change the nature of forests (spruce to pine for example).
deeviant 5y ago
I'm rather confident very few in California "forgot" that their areas burn. Large parts of California burn down every year and have done so through the height of "excessive fire suppression". Also fire insurance premiums help jog the memory. The core of the issue has little to do with the fire suppression policy and more to do with the interface between humans and wildlands. There just aren't many areas that are even safe to do proscribe burns en masse that won't threaten some property or structures even if prescribed burns were emphasized. And I just don't understand how ever single one of these "The REAL problem is California doesn't let wildfires burn" threads is they always start with, "yeah climate change could possibly maybe be one cause but the REAL cause is..." No, really, climate change is not some incidental factor here, the climate conditions in CA are a huge contributor to these fires and possibly dominating factor in these fires.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  No, really, climate change is not some incidental factor here, the climate conditions in CA are a huge contributor to these fires and possibly dominating factor in these fires. All the more reason to focus on managing them, and remember the state's history of fires when deciding where and how to build structures and manage urban/wild interfaces in the future.
  - lliamander 5y ago
    This really needs to be emphasized more. Just because a problem is caused by climate change doesn't mean that waiting for climate change to be stopped is the right solution. There is local action that can and should be taken.
    - deeviant 5y ago
      And that action is? Government seizes control of any property that is on these interfaces and kicks the people out of their homes? Or maybe the less harsh: government buys all these properties with eminent domain, kicks people off and lets the lands go fallow? What reality are you guys living in that you think any of this will happen and why do I feel that that same type of people placing forth such armchair planning and development mandates will be part of the crowd up in arms when people are being told they can no longer live where they do because we need to give the land back to the earth to burn in a peace. The reality of the situation is far more complex as is the solution.
samatman 5y ago
Where California is concerned, there haven't been "natural conditions" for 12,000 years. The indigenous people practiced a careful system of controlled burns, to prevent megafires and to keep the land healthy for hunting. It wasn't a wilderness, it was a garden. Failure to understand this is a big part of what lead us to what we see today.
- acituan 5y ago
  Any reliable source on this? I for one doubt that the population density could allow an exhaustive conversion of all wilderness into “a garden” with a complete absence of megafires. Sounds a bit like a “noble savage” romanticism.
  - cols 5y ago
    https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indigenous-controlled-burns-california https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indi...
  - adrienthebo 5y ago
    * NPR: To Manage Wildfire, California Looks To What Tribes Have Known All Along https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-california-looks-to-what-tribes-have-known-all-along https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-... * Cap radio: The Racist Removal Of Native Americans In California Is Often Missing From Wildfire Discussions, Experts Say https://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/09/16/the-racist-removal-of-native-americans-in-california-is-often-missing-from-wildfire-discussions-experts-say/ https://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/09/16/the-racist-remo... * Nature: Quiet Fire: Indigenous tribes in California and other parts of the U.S. have been rekindling the ancient art of controlled burning https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indigenous-controlled-burns-california/ https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indi... Edit: formatting
    - acituan 5y ago
      Thanks for the share. I’m aware of these articles and aware of the age-old practices, which are not even exclusive to Americas or ancient times. But I don’t see any data on the whole wilderness being turned into a garden by these tribes and mega fires not being there thanks to it.

Enginerrrd 5y ago

In my opinion, there's also the fact that very few people know what an old growth forest looks like compared to 2nd growth in the PNW. There's a profound difference in ecosystems with new growth having tremendously more undergrowth. If you spend enough time in the forests, you'll start to see it too. The 2nd growth stuff looks and feels imbalanced.

titzer 5y ago
Forests take thousands upon thousands of years to mature. It can take centuries for the mix of tree species to develop to the point where the "apex" species of tree appears and then dominates the ecosystem. Ecosystems are extraordinarily complex. In my head, I see reforested areas like the Potato Jesus painting with a bonus "Mission Accomplished" banner.
- bishoprook2 5y ago
  " Forests take thousands upon thousands of years to mature." I can't be too many thousands of years. It doesn't take too many thousands to completely change the nature of forests (spruce to pine for example).

deeviant 5y ago

I'm rather confident very few in California "forgot" that their areas burn. Large parts of California burn down every year and have done so through the height of "excessive fire suppression". Also fire insurance premiums help jog the memory. The core of the issue has little to do with the fire suppression policy and more to do with the interface between humans and wildlands. There just aren't many areas that are even safe to do proscribe burns en masse that won't threaten some property or structures even if prescribed burns were emphasized. And I just don't understand how ever single one of these "The REAL problem is California doesn't let wildfires burn" threads is they always start with, "yeah climate change could possibly maybe be one cause but the REAL cause is..." No, really, climate change is not some incidental factor here, the climate conditions in CA are a huge contributor to these fires and possibly dominating factor in these fires.

nitrogen 5y ago
No, really, climate change is not some incidental factor here, the climate conditions in CA are a huge contributor to these fires and possibly dominating factor in these fires. All the more reason to focus on managing them, and remember the state's history of fires when deciding where and how to build structures and manage urban/wild interfaces in the future.
- lliamander 5y ago
  This really needs to be emphasized more. Just because a problem is caused by climate change doesn't mean that waiting for climate change to be stopped is the right solution. There is local action that can and should be taken.
  - deeviant 5y ago
    And that action is? Government seizes control of any property that is on these interfaces and kicks the people out of their homes? Or maybe the less harsh: government buys all these properties with eminent domain, kicks people off and lets the lands go fallow? What reality are you guys living in that you think any of this will happen and why do I feel that that same type of people placing forth such armchair planning and development mandates will be part of the crowd up in arms when people are being told they can no longer live where they do because we need to give the land back to the earth to burn in a peace. The reality of the situation is far more complex as is the solution.

samatman 5y ago

Where California is concerned, there haven't been "natural conditions" for 12,000 years. The indigenous people practiced a careful system of controlled burns, to prevent megafires and to keep the land healthy for hunting. It wasn't a wilderness, it was a garden. Failure to understand this is a big part of what lead us to what we see today.

acituan 5y ago
Any reliable source on this? I for one doubt that the population density could allow an exhaustive conversion of all wilderness into “a garden” with a complete absence of megafires. Sounds a bit like a “noble savage” romanticism.
- cols 5y ago
  https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indigenous-controlled-burns-california https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indi...
- adrienthebo 5y ago
  * NPR: To Manage Wildfire, California Looks To What Tribes Have Known All Along https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-california-looks-to-what-tribes-have-known-all-along https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-... * Cap radio: The Racist Removal Of Native Americans In California Is Often Missing From Wildfire Discussions, Experts Say https://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/09/16/the-racist-removal-of-native-americans-in-california-is-often-missing-from-wildfire-discussions-experts-say/ https://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/09/16/the-racist-remo... * Nature: Quiet Fire: Indigenous tribes in California and other parts of the U.S. have been rekindling the ancient art of controlled burning https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indigenous-controlled-burns-california/ https://www.nature.org/en-us/magazine/magazine-articles/indi... Edit: formatting
  - acituan 5y ago
    Thanks for the share. I’m aware of these articles and aware of the age-old practices, which are not even exclusive to Americas or ancient times. But I don’t see any data on the whole wilderness being turned into a garden by these tribes and mega fires not being there thanks to it.