4 ms·

Oh well, that's alright then. As long as it's only successful people getting screwed I suppose we're good.

by simonh 5y ago

emodendroket 5y ago
I mean, am I supposed to feel sorry for high-income people because they have to pay tax to continue to benefit from US citizenship and US embassies? I don't really, nor do I consider it getting "screwed." I think it is only fair that well-to-do expats should pay into the system like everybody else. If they don't want to, I welcome them to take the article's lead and give up their citizenship.
- simonh 5y ago
  If it was just getting taxed up to a point I think you'd have a reasonable argument, but looking at the torturous nonsense they have to go through to the point where even US banks think the costs of having them as clients isn't worth the hassle, it's clearly way beyond that. Also, many of these people don't actually owe any tax at all, or relatively small amounts, but it's ridiculously difficult and costly to prove it. I mean what is the objective? Raise tax revenue from ex-pats, or drive them out of US citizenship? What's actually happening seems to be the latter, not so much the former. Surely that's a serious policy failure.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    After not living in the US for a few years, your view of the US is quite disillusioned. They don’t want you to come back and live there. The need to keep everyone thinking the US is the best. /s
- fantod 5y ago
  The thing is, many of these expats aren't even "paying into the system" anyway. I have to file US taxes but can deduct what I pay in taxes in my country of residency, which is higher than I'd pay in the US; as a result, I don't actually owe any US taxes. But, like another commenter said, I have to pay thousands to someone to figure out how to even file all this stuff. In other words, some local accountant is making bank, not the IRS.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I could probably be convinced to get on board with an initiative to make filing easier, but this is a different argument than I was responding to.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  From what I’ve read, the US is possibly one of the worst countries to have to file taxes with, paperwork-wise. And that’s for the simple scenario of someone actually living in the US. But is also is another issue altogether. How US citizens can bear with this and the lobbying that spawned it is beyond me.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    The people who have complicated taxes also usually have complex income sources and generally higher incomes. If you just get your wage the tax forms are relatively straightforward. Being international complicates things but you'll notice people are talking about the headaches associated with running their businesses, capital gains, etc.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Yeah, while you could argue that the IRS should do pre-filled electronic returns, the reality is that if you have a W2 and a couple 1099s, doing your taxes is pretty straightfoward. As you say, it's more complex income sources and potentially deductions that lead to big accountant bills.
      - mellavora 5y ago
        Or simply the fact of living overseas. And you mention 1099s, i.e. self employed. Well, if you run a sole proprietorship as an expat, you still have to file US self-employment tax forms, and there are also QUARTERLY filing requirements with penalties for non-filing. Or you need to get the paper certifying that your country has a totalization agreement with the US (not all do). And since 1099 isn't a thing in EU, you have to file the US 'small business' tax form, which is actually 3-5 forms. so as an expat, even what should be very straight forward turns into a massive mess.
        ghaff 5y ago
        Sure. Yes, I was assuming a US citizen/resident working for an employer who has income from a few basic sources and is taking standard deduction--which actually describes a lot of people. (And I was mentioning 1099s mostly in the context of a brokerage account.)
- skatkartoffel 5y ago
  Serious question, what benefits do you think US citizenship and US embassies provide over and beyond what pretty much every other western country provides to their citizens?
jrochkind1 5y ago
Well, wehther it's alright or not, whether it is accurately characterized as 'getting screwed' or not, at least it's only the ones who can most afford it.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  No, this hits the upper to middle professional class the hardest. One percenters are handled by a staff with white gloves as always.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Strange that we're all commenting on an article concerning specifically the ultra wealthy renouncing citizenship to reduce tax liability then
2xpress 5y ago
Perhaps you are being sarcastic in the parent comment, but United States "screwing" its successful people and forcing them out means that these successful people will no longer contribute to United States, but to their new home country instead. Without their contributions the Unites States will be less successful, thereby "screwing" everybody in it. This trend within United States is especially ironic and alarming considering that United States gained its success specifically by giving home to persecuted people from other countries with capacity for success. Conversely, other countries, some obvious examples being Nazi Germany and USSR, were not successful specifically because they forced out their successful people.

Oh well, that's alright then. As long as it's only successful people getting screwed I suppose we're good.

by simonh 5y ago

Oh well, that's alright then. As long as it's only successful people getting screwed I suppose we're good.

I mean, am I supposed to feel sorry for high-income people because they have to pay tax to continue to benefit from US citizenship and US embassies? I don't really, nor do I consider it getting "screwed." I think it is only fair that well-to-do expats should pay into the system like everybody else. If they don't want to, I welcome them to take the article's lead and give up their citizenship.

simonh 5y ago
If it was just getting taxed up to a point I think you'd have a reasonable argument, but looking at the torturous nonsense they have to go through to the point where even US banks think the costs of having them as clients isn't worth the hassle, it's clearly way beyond that. Also, many of these people don't actually owe any tax at all, or relatively small amounts, but it's ridiculously difficult and costly to prove it. I mean what is the objective? Raise tax revenue from ex-pats, or drive them out of US citizenship? What's actually happening seems to be the latter, not so much the former. Surely that's a serious policy failure.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  After not living in the US for a few years, your view of the US is quite disillusioned. They don’t want you to come back and live there. The need to keep everyone thinking the US is the best. /s
fantod 5y ago
The thing is, many of these expats aren't even "paying into the system" anyway. I have to file US taxes but can deduct what I pay in taxes in my country of residency, which is higher than I'd pay in the US; as a result, I don't actually owe any US taxes. But, like another commenter said, I have to pay thousands to someone to figure out how to even file all this stuff. In other words, some local accountant is making bank, not the IRS.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I could probably be convinced to get on board with an initiative to make filing easier, but this is a different argument than I was responding to.
ElFitz 5y ago
From what I’ve read, the US is possibly one of the worst countries to have to file taxes with, paperwork-wise. And that’s for the simple scenario of someone actually living in the US. But is also is another issue altogether. How US citizens can bear with this and the lobbying that spawned it is beyond me.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  The people who have complicated taxes also usually have complex income sources and generally higher incomes. If you just get your wage the tax forms are relatively straightforward. Being international complicates things but you'll notice people are talking about the headaches associated with running their businesses, capital gains, etc.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Yeah, while you could argue that the IRS should do pre-filled electronic returns, the reality is that if you have a W2 and a couple 1099s, doing your taxes is pretty straightfoward. As you say, it's more complex income sources and potentially deductions that lead to big accountant bills.
    - mellavora 5y ago
      Or simply the fact of living overseas. And you mention 1099s, i.e. self employed. Well, if you run a sole proprietorship as an expat, you still have to file US self-employment tax forms, and there are also QUARTERLY filing requirements with penalties for non-filing. Or you need to get the paper certifying that your country has a totalization agreement with the US (not all do). And since 1099 isn't a thing in EU, you have to file the US 'small business' tax form, which is actually 3-5 forms. so as an expat, even what should be very straight forward turns into a massive mess.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        Sure. Yes, I was assuming a US citizen/resident working for an employer who has income from a few basic sources and is taking standard deduction--which actually describes a lot of people. (And I was mentioning 1099s mostly in the context of a brokerage account.)
skatkartoffel 5y ago
Serious question, what benefits do you think US citizenship and US embassies provide over and beyond what pretty much every other western country provides to their citizens?

jrochkind1 5y ago

Well, wehther it's alright or not, whether it is accurately characterized as 'getting screwed' or not, at least it's only the ones who can most afford it.

mixmastamyk 5y ago
No, this hits the upper to middle professional class the hardest. One percenters are handled by a staff with white gloves as always.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Strange that we're all commenting on an article concerning specifically the ultra wealthy renouncing citizenship to reduce tax liability then

2xpress 5y ago

Perhaps you are being sarcastic in the parent comment, but United States "screwing" its successful people and forcing them out means that these successful people will no longer contribute to United States, but to their new home country instead. Without their contributions the Unites States will be less successful, thereby "screwing" everybody in it. This trend within United States is especially ironic and alarming considering that United States gained its success specifically by giving home to persecuted people from other countries with capacity for success. Conversely, other countries, some obvious examples being Nazi Germany and USSR, were not successful specifically because they forced out their successful people.