7 ms·

Some are "accidental Americans" like UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, born in the US, who discovered as a US citizen he had to pay capital gains taxes when he s

by fmajid 5y ago

Some are "accidental Americans" like UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, born in the US, who discovered as a US citizen he had to pay capital gains taxes when he sold his London apartment. Australia requires its parliamentarians to have only Australian citizenship and some discovered for the same reason they were not eligible. Furthermore, the burden of FATCA is sufficiently onerous that many banks etc. just refuse to deal with it and close the accounts of US persons. A number of long-time expat Americans, e.g. in Germany, have renounced their citizenship because they are unable to function due to this.

aarchi 5y ago
Well Germany also requires that you surrender other citizenships when you get a German citizenship, unless you are a German dual citizen through ancestry.
- eduardo_f 5y ago
  This is incorrect.
- rsstack 5y ago
  Imprecise but not incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_(or_other_multiple)_citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_(o...
  - anticristi 5y ago
    I heard rumours that this law is basically to put a thorn in the eye of Turkish immigrants minus what the EU does not allow. Is there any truth in this?
    - rolleiflex 5y ago
      Yes, and Turkey moved to nullify this by creating a system in which if you are otherwise a valid Turkish citizen that has to give up because of a requirement from a foreign country like this, you can get on a special status in which you cannot vote, but have all the other privileges of Turkish citizenship. That status is not citizenship in theory, but practically you have everything as usual, and can participate in the Turkish social security, retirement, health system and all else. It’s called the blue card.
      - throwaway2037 5y ago
        This sounds similar to the Overseas Citizen of India (OCI) card. Can any Indian nationals comment?
        rolleiflex 5y ago
        I think the main difference is that Turkey does not require you to relinquish your Turkish citizenship if you get another, while India does. In a way TRs system is entirely to help out with an issue a foreign country creates, while India’s is primarily an attempt to recover from an own goal — assuming you believe people having multiple citizenships is a good thing.
    - bakuninsbart 5y ago
      It got really awkward when the large minority of turkish Germans living in Germany with turkish citizenry overwhelmingly voted for Erdogan in the last elections. I'd really wish Germany was able to adopt an immigrant culture similar to the US, but the current situation is a semi-failure, but neither side of the political spectrum seems to be able to implement good policies to solve the issues.
      - markdown 5y ago
        > the current situation is a semi-failure WOuld you care to expand on that? I'm curious what in particular about the US immigrant culture you would like to see adopted, and what about the current German system prevents that culture from developing.
        bakuninsbart 5y ago
        Sadly I can't find good polls on some of the things I want to talk about, so this has a bit of an anecdotal note. But I've been living in a majority turkish subdistrict for most of my life, and have many german-turkish friends, as well as friends and family teaching in schools with many turkish and arab descendant kids. But first some facts: "People with a migration background", which includes their children and children's children even if they were born here, make up 21% of the population. Half of these hold german citizenship. 40% of all kids have a migrant background. 12.5% of people with a migrant background are so called Spätaussiedler, ethnic germans who migrated to Germany after WWII.[1] Attidudes of Germans at large towards immigration are very mixed: 71% think that it leads to higher strain on the welfare state, 69% think it leads to conflicts with "the natives", 63% think it leads to problems in schools. At the same time, 67% think that it makes life in Germany more interesting, and 64% think immigration is important to combat the effects of our quickly aging population.[2] Now on to what I think is the biggest failure, which is now very hard to correct: Many second or third generation immigrants still don't feel like they are "real" germans. There's still a strong class divide, which in urban areas also leads to segregated communities. They are underrepresented in politics (except for the Spätaussiedler) and white collar jobs, and there is whitespread employment discrimination, especially against people of turkish, arab and african descent.[3] While the current government declared a "welcome culture" in 2015 during the refugee crisis, in the heads of the majority of the population, there's still a very clear picture of how a "real german" looks and acts. - While close to half of the population admits that "Islam is a part of german culture now", they will still ask Ahmed "where he is really from", and rather hire Oscar over him. This also partially explains why Erdogan is so popular among turkish Germans: They feel disrespected here, so the vision (delusion) of Erdogan making Turkey into this powerful and strong state is very appealing to them. I do think things are getting slightly better, but there's a long way to go, and there's also risks of things turning really sour: Anti-democratic ideology is relatively widespread among the muslim minority, in contrast to the rest of the population, their level of religiousness stays about the same, the current money policy of the ECB leads to an enormous rise in living cost in urban areas, and the divide between rich and poor in Germany is increasing. [1]https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situation-in-deutschland/61646/migrationshintergrund-i https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-si... [2] https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/einstellungen.html https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/einstellunge... [3] https://bibliothek.wzb.eu/pdf/2018/vi18-104.pdf https://bibliothek.wzb.eu/pdf/2018/vi18-104.pdf
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    The parent sounds authoritative, but its source, Wikipedia, isn't. It's not much better than a comment on HN.
  - throwaway2037 5y ago
    Also, I assume there is a special exception for Jewish families of German descent who were unfairly stripped of their nationality during the National Socialist period (early 1940s). There is a programme to help people re-gain their citizenship. I've read a few long-form jounalism articles (in English) about people who don't speak German and are not German residents applying under this programme.
    - rsstack 5y ago
      Pretty much anyone whose citizenship was revoked by the Nazi government, or descendants of those victims who would have had citizenship today had it not been for the Nazi government, can apply to have the citizenship reinstated. Numerically it's likely mostly Jewish families in Israel and the US, but it applies to all of the Nazis' German victims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Victims_of_Nazi_persecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Victims...
- disabled 5y ago
  Or your other citizenships are solely from the European Union. (You can be a dual/tri/quad EU|German citizen)
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  Doesn't the Netherlands do this as well? As a Canadian I think not allowing dual citizenship might solve a lot of issues with both the very rich and the very poor.
  - Muromec 5y ago
    Unless you marry a citizen or get citizenship by option , you have to surrender previous one.
    - mistrial9 5y ago
      unless you have special wealth status?
mywittyname 5y ago
Is it possible to operate using a business account in other countries? It's pretty cheap and easy to do in the USA.
- erikw 5y ago
  Unfortunately if you have equity in the business, you'll get taxed. However, if you are only an employee, you get an exemption on something like $150,000 of income, housing, and other expenses. So as a US citizen, you can avoid taxes only by living outside the US, and being an employee of a non-US company. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me as I'd greatly benefit!
  - Maursault 5y ago
    Not to correct, but to affirm. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusio...
  - mellavora 5y ago
    nitpicking. You don't get out of taxes, you get out of paying US taxes (on earned income, you still have to pay capital gains). But you still have to file US taxes. As an expat, you have more forms to fill out. AND the bigger challenges are banking. You still have to find a bank willing to open an account for you, and good luck getting more complex financial services.
- noodlesUK 5y ago
  Yeah, it is in theory, but even small businesses incorporated abroad with US persons involved in them put huge reporting burdens on the US person. Form 5471 and friends make this stuff look straightforward. Most of the time I find my frustration isn’t about how much money I am paying in taxes, but just how much dull and confusing paperwork I have to understand. Even trained professionals who spend their whole lives doing this get confused by US tax compliance for people who have international lives. The US needs to realise how important the a positive reputation in its expat community would be for its soft power.
yawaworht1978 5y ago
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson aka Boris Johnson is not as clumsy as his haircut makes him look to be. The guy keeps fit, doesn't look like Rambo but he is fit with a bit a sticky build. He is intelligent, he survived the muddy waters of politics, affairs and is prime minister. Of course he always knew he is American dual citizen, a person like him does not handle an apartment sale himself, he has handlers and advisors. And he was in a very high income bracket for a while and it's safe to say he fell into a us taxable segment before that sale. He is a showman and this was just the event where the tax bill was too high and he said "no more".
- spoonjim 5y ago
  Boris Johnson is a Ted Cruz who knew the appeal of a Donald Trump.
- didntknowya 5y ago
  hah yes this. the buffoon act really makes people underestimate- and if i dare say, sympathize with him. but he's much more competent (at getting what he wants) than people give him credit for.
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    That's what he wants you to think. In reality he really is just a buffoon.
    - ithkuil 5y ago
      Nobody will ever know, not even him! Good read: Kim Philby as a Real Case of Indeterminacy of Radical Interpretation: http://polatulet.narod.ru/dvc/ddbs/dennett_breaking.html#ch_apd http://polatulet.narod.ru/dvc/ddbs/dennett_breaking.html#ch_...
      - Evgeny 5y ago
        Wow, narod.ru still alive. One of the first websites I remember.

by fmajid 5y ago

aarchi 5y ago

Well Germany also requires that you surrender other citizenships when you get a German citizenship, unless you are a German dual citizen through ancestry.

eduardo_f 5y ago
This is incorrect.
rsstack 5y ago
Imprecise but not incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_(or_other_multiple)_citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_(o...
- anticristi 5y ago
  I heard rumours that this law is basically to put a thorn in the eye of Turkish immigrants minus what the EU does not allow. Is there any truth in this?
  - rolleiflex 5y ago
    Yes, and Turkey moved to nullify this by creating a system in which if you are otherwise a valid Turkish citizen that has to give up because of a requirement from a foreign country like this, you can get on a special status in which you cannot vote, but have all the other privileges of Turkish citizenship. That status is not citizenship in theory, but practically you have everything as usual, and can participate in the Turkish social security, retirement, health system and all else. It’s called the blue card.
    - throwaway2037 5y ago
      This sounds similar to the Overseas Citizen of India (OCI) card. Can any Indian nationals comment?
      - rolleiflex 5y ago
        I think the main difference is that Turkey does not require you to relinquish your Turkish citizenship if you get another, while India does. In a way TRs system is entirely to help out with an issue a foreign country creates, while India’s is primarily an attempt to recover from an own goal — assuming you believe people having multiple citizenships is a good thing.
  - bakuninsbart 5y ago
    It got really awkward when the large minority of turkish Germans living in Germany with turkish citizenry overwhelmingly voted for Erdogan in the last elections. I'd really wish Germany was able to adopt an immigrant culture similar to the US, but the current situation is a semi-failure, but neither side of the political spectrum seems to be able to implement good policies to solve the issues.
    - markdown 5y ago
      > the current situation is a semi-failure WOuld you care to expand on that? I'm curious what in particular about the US immigrant culture you would like to see adopted, and what about the current German system prevents that culture from developing.
      - bakuninsbart 5y ago
        Sadly I can't find good polls on some of the things I want to talk about, so this has a bit of an anecdotal note. But I've been living in a majority turkish subdistrict for most of my life, and have many german-turkish friends, as well as friends and family teaching in schools with many turkish and arab descendant kids. But first some facts: "People with a migration background", which includes their children and children's children even if they were born here, make up 21% of the population. Half of these hold german citizenship. 40% of all kids have a migrant background. 12.5% of people with a migrant background are so called Spätaussiedler, ethnic germans who migrated to Germany after WWII.[1] Attidudes of Germans at large towards immigration are very mixed: 71% think that it leads to higher strain on the welfare state, 69% think it leads to conflicts with "the natives", 63% think it leads to problems in schools. At the same time, 67% think that it makes life in Germany more interesting, and 64% think immigration is important to combat the effects of our quickly aging population.[2] Now on to what I think is the biggest failure, which is now very hard to correct: Many second or third generation immigrants still don't feel like they are "real" germans. There's still a strong class divide, which in urban areas also leads to segregated communities. They are underrepresented in politics (except for the Spätaussiedler) and white collar jobs, and there is whitespread employment discrimination, especially against people of turkish, arab and african descent.[3] While the current government declared a "welcome culture" in 2015 during the refugee crisis, in the heads of the majority of the population, there's still a very clear picture of how a "real german" looks and acts. - While close to half of the population admits that "Islam is a part of german culture now", they will still ask Ahmed "where he is really from", and rather hire Oscar over him. This also partially explains why Erdogan is so popular among turkish Germans: They feel disrespected here, so the vision (delusion) of Erdogan making Turkey into this powerful and strong state is very appealing to them. I do think things are getting slightly better, but there's a long way to go, and there's also risks of things turning really sour: Anti-democratic ideology is relatively widespread among the muslim minority, in contrast to the rest of the population, their level of religiousness stays about the same, the current money policy of the ECB leads to an enormous rise in living cost in urban areas, and the divide between rich and poor in Germany is increasing. [1]https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situation-in-deutschland/61646/migrationshintergrund-i https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-si... [2] https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/einstellungen.html https://mediendienst-integration.de/integration/einstellunge... [3] https://bibliothek.wzb.eu/pdf/2018/vi18-104.pdf https://bibliothek.wzb.eu/pdf/2018/vi18-104.pdf
- wolverine876 5y ago
  The parent sounds authoritative, but its source, Wikipedia, isn't. It's not much better than a comment on HN.
- throwaway2037 5y ago
  Also, I assume there is a special exception for Jewish families of German descent who were unfairly stripped of their nationality during the National Socialist period (early 1940s). There is a programme to help people re-gain their citizenship. I've read a few long-form jounalism articles (in English) about people who don't speak German and are not German residents applying under this programme.
  - rsstack 5y ago
    Pretty much anyone whose citizenship was revoked by the Nazi government, or descendants of those victims who would have had citizenship today had it not been for the Nazi government, can apply to have the citizenship reinstated. Numerically it's likely mostly Jewish families in Israel and the US, but it applies to all of the Nazis' German victims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Victims_of_Nazi_persecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Victims...
disabled 5y ago
Or your other citizenships are solely from the European Union. (You can be a dual/tri/quad EU|German citizen)
skeeter2020 5y ago
Doesn't the Netherlands do this as well? As a Canadian I think not allowing dual citizenship might solve a lot of issues with both the very rich and the very poor.
- Muromec 5y ago
  Unless you marry a citizen or get citizenship by option , you have to surrender previous one.
  - mistrial9 5y ago
    unless you have special wealth status?

mywittyname 5y ago

Is it possible to operate using a business account in other countries? It's pretty cheap and easy to do in the USA.

erikw 5y ago
Unfortunately if you have equity in the business, you'll get taxed. However, if you are only an employee, you get an exemption on something like $150,000 of income, housing, and other expenses. So as a US citizen, you can avoid taxes only by living outside the US, and being an employee of a non-US company. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me as I'd greatly benefit!
- Maursault 5y ago
  Not to correct, but to affirm. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusio...
- mellavora 5y ago
  nitpicking. You don't get out of taxes, you get out of paying US taxes (on earned income, you still have to pay capital gains). But you still have to file US taxes. As an expat, you have more forms to fill out. AND the bigger challenges are banking. You still have to find a bank willing to open an account for you, and good luck getting more complex financial services.
noodlesUK 5y ago
Yeah, it is in theory, but even small businesses incorporated abroad with US persons involved in them put huge reporting burdens on the US person. Form 5471 and friends make this stuff look straightforward. Most of the time I find my frustration isn’t about how much money I am paying in taxes, but just how much dull and confusing paperwork I have to understand. Even trained professionals who spend their whole lives doing this get confused by US tax compliance for people who have international lives. The US needs to realise how important the a positive reputation in its expat community would be for its soft power.

yawaworht1978 5y ago

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson aka Boris Johnson is not as clumsy as his haircut makes him look to be. The guy keeps fit, doesn't look like Rambo but he is fit with a bit a sticky build. He is intelligent, he survived the muddy waters of politics, affairs and is prime minister. Of course he always knew he is American dual citizen, a person like him does not handle an apartment sale himself, he has handlers and advisors. And he was in a very high income bracket for a while and it's safe to say he fell into a us taxable segment before that sale. He is a showman and this was just the event where the tax bill was too high and he said "no more".

spoonjim 5y ago
Boris Johnson is a Ted Cruz who knew the appeal of a Donald Trump.
didntknowya 5y ago
hah yes this. the buffoon act really makes people underestimate- and if i dare say, sympathize with him. but he's much more competent (at getting what he wants) than people give him credit for.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  That's what he wants you to think. In reality he really is just a buffoon.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    Nobody will ever know, not even him! Good read: Kim Philby as a Real Case of Indeterminacy of Radical Interpretation: http://polatulet.narod.ru/dvc/ddbs/dennett_breaking.html#ch_apd http://polatulet.narod.ru/dvc/ddbs/dennett_breaking.html#ch_...
    - Evgeny 5y ago
      Wow, narod.ru still alive. One of the first websites I remember.