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GamerPay (https://gamerpay.gg/ https://gamerpay.gg/) is a scam-free marketplace for gaming skins and assets. 46% of gamers trading skins have been scammed more

GamerPay (https://gamerpay.gg/ https://gamerpay.gg/) is a scam-free marketplace for gaming skins and assets. 46% of gamers trading skins have been scammed more than once for either their money or their skins (survey of 5,000 gamers). 50% of gamers are under 18 and this their first online trading/cash experience. We solve this problem by integrating with Steam and making use of escrow, validating all trades. We are regulated by European Financial Services, and have a compliant way of onboarding minors, with parental consent. I am the owner of Scandinavia's largest Counter-Strike community, with 82k members. Not a day goes by where I am not contacted by young people who lost their money buying and selling skins. They often get depressed, either because they lost a lot of money, or because it was part of their identity. In one case, a young guy lost all the money he had received from his confirmation, roughly 5000 dollars. He was ashamed and afraid to tell his family and friends. In another case, one that really got to me, a 17 year old was persuaded to give his ID to "prove his legitimacy" in a trade. The scammer saved the picture with him holding his ID, then created a fake profile and scammed hundreds of others, getting the 17-year old in trouble with the police and attacked on social media. We did extensive surveys, found that this is a surprisingly big problem (the gaming market is of course huge) and decided that something needed to be done. Current solutions were obscure, too expensive, or unavailable due to region or age. Example of how it works with us: a young gamer from the UK meets a US gamer on Discord or Reddit. The US buyer agrees to buy the UK seller's item. They go to GamerPay where the US buyer pays for the item. We hold the money in escrow until it's validated that the UK seller has transferred the exact item. The UK seller receives the cash on to their bank account. There is no risk in who "goes first" with the money or skin. We charge a straightforward transaction fee of 5%. One nice thing is that for the first time, safe cross-border trades are now available. We have seen sellers from Denmark (where we're from) connect with buyers from the US. We have also seen our first seller doing 100 trades in less than 6 weeks on our marketplace. We look forward to hearing your feedback!

dinkleberg 5y ago
I’m not in your target audience, but I love the idea and the backstory. This seems like a real strong niche that was due for some innovation. Best of luck!
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  Thanks a lot, and I truly agree.
lamroger 5y ago
V cool. Is there a way to publicly verify a transaction went through? Or they send a screenshot?
- pacoWebConsult 5y ago
  I assume this is where the integration with Steam comes into play. Checking the seller's inventory and the buyer's inventory
  - martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
    Correct
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  They do it through a unique link from our platform. And once signed in as a seller you will get notifications and sms when you have a trade
xmaayy 5y ago
I know there are a lot of disparate services like SkinBaron[0] for individual games. Is your value-add that you're regulated / you can act as a middle-man for any steam items? [0] https://skinbaron.de/en https://skinbaron.de/en
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  Our main value adds is that we can allow minors to trade safely. You have to be 18 at Skinbaron. Another is that Skinbaron charges over 20 percent total.
  - texasbigdata 5y ago
    Race to the bottom, ignoring the winner-take-all scenario where you do everything for everyone, when the next group comes in at 2% + copy pastes your entire website copy and you’ve already inoculated to the end market that this solution works, which they piggy back on to get traction....can you survive more than a few qualified competitors and actually make it to cash flow break even? And why won’t this be a “many make no profit” type of market that settles with many undifferentiated sellers with close to substinance level terminal margins? Obviously marketplaces are great, your product market fit seems strong, and you have both demographics and GMV trends behind you; but you’re in a space with passionate people who might do things for free (like people host or participate in gaming forums or discords). Even at a few engineers you’re burning cash for quite a while, but you’re touching minors (sorry, no pun) in highly regulated markets like Europe, so you probably need a few compliance dedicated FTEs. How do you resolve disputes where it’s not QUITE the $50k skin and they sue? Or do you require arbitration at signup? How does this work in the first 3 years until you hopefully win? VC funded burn?
    - sushid 5y ago
      It's an escrow + marketplace service. Your argument can be used against anything like eBay, Etsy, Poshmark, etc. You're assuming that the OP stagnates while copycats emerge around them, which is also a horrible assumption. Also, "free" cannot host websites, hire workers, add features (as quickly). It's funny you mention that their service will require multiple compliance officers while you simultaneously think there's also someone who can do it for free because they're passionate. Lastly, a skin is a skin. There's no "not quite like it" because it's a digital good, not a sandwich. I'm sure they'll use their retained lawyer when someone sues for 50k. Overall, it sounds like you're not even against their specific product, but the idea of being a venture funded startup.
ibaikov 5y ago
But this is against TOS, isn't it?
- Nadya 5y ago
  Since when did rules/laws start mattering for vc-backed startups? Continue paying fines until you're large enough to bribe, I mean lobby, for the law to change. It's just cost of doing business. It's very difficult to go after/shut down sites that breach ToS like this. See nearly every gold-selling site for any MMORPG in existence. They do sometimes get shutdown eventually but typically after many years and they often re-open with a new brand name.
  - ibaikov 5y ago
    Honestly it's just bittersweet that YC does due dilligence like this for gaming startups. I mean some of them are cool businesses (like this one), but I'm a little salty since selling items not through steam is absolutely against valve's TOS. Remember that startup that wanted to do an mmo with thousands of players, VR etc etc and the demo was a compilation of free assets in UE4..? Ok, now back to work.
    - martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
      It is not against valves terms of service. They actually embrace the developement community around steam and their games
      - ibaikov 5y ago
        Valve only allows non-commercial use [1], and selling items not on steam marketplace is clearly against it. [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ (2 A)
        martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
        This is for the steam client, and thi agreement is mainly aimed at content/game developers
hamhamed 5y ago
changing currency doesn't seem to work for me, stuck in EUR. Anyways, this is great. Between lootbear, csmoney, and steam marketplace, I think i like your model best since it translates directly to cold hard cash. However, last I seen this model in the wild, it got banned.. re: OPSkins. How are you circumventing that?
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  OpSkins got banned because they tried to circumvent the 7 day tradelock, and they we also moving closer to the position csgoempire have today which is skin gambling. We dont want to be that. We want to do for skins, what coinbase did for crypto
telesilla 5y ago
I'd love to see this made available to the Spanish market next, will follow and see how you do.
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  You can actually use it in Spain, Portugal, Brazil and more. However you have to live with it being in English for now
devrand 5y ago
The fact that you need to hand over a Steam API key is really worrisome, and the FAQ entry for it isn't all that reassuring [1]. You're basically just saying "no it's cool trust us". Are you encrypting these API keys? Do you delete them after each transaction? It's kind of a honeypot if you're holding onto the keys. You don't have the ability to revoke them so if they're ever compromised it's on your users to revoke them before misuse. It's worth noting that there's a ton of undocumented (by Valve) Web API methods [2]. If you just look at the official documentation [3] it misleads you into thinking it's a read-only API for fairly basic data. I presume that GamerPay is relying upon some of these undocumented APIs as part of their implementation. [1]: https://intercom.help/gamerpay/en/articles/5313751-is-it-safe-to-hand-over-my-api-key https://intercom.help/gamerpay/en/articles/5313751-is-it-saf... [2]: https://steamapi.xpaw.me/ https://steamapi.xpaw.me/ [3]: https://steamcommunity.com/dev https://steamcommunity.com/dev
- Gamerpay_mhs 5y ago
  Thanks for the feedback on the FAQ and thoughts. Agreed that the Steam API key is sensitive data and thus all keys, user data etc are secured by appropriate encryption. Same goes for cash transactions & wallets that are handled by partners that are compliant with the financial authorities (to prevent eg money laundering). We work with the Steam APIs on a daily basis and yes some part of the documentation could be more up to date.. and it's not Stripe quality!
  - x4e 5y ago
    Why do you need the API key? Why not just do it like a traditional escrow service: you receive both the money and the item traded to a steam account you own. Then once both are received you send the money and you send a trade request giving the item to the receiver?
    - andruby 5y ago
      Would that mean Steam takes their cut twice? Or can you "gift" items for free?
FanaHOVA 5y ago
What do you think is wrong with existing solutions like OPSkins (RIP, played themselves), Bitskins, etc?
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  Most marketplaces fall under obscure or to expensive. And pretty much none of them have built a compliant way of onbording minors who suffer the most from scamming. So they are all 18 plus.
w-ll 5y ago
Is it not possible to sell being a US user? Cant get past "Payout & account information". Revoked my key for the current.
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  For the moment you cannot sell as a US citizen. We hope to silve this in the near future

dinkleberg 5y ago

I’m not in your target audience, but I love the idea and the backstory. This seems like a real strong niche that was due for some innovation. Best of luck!

martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
Thanks a lot, and I truly agree.

lamroger 5y ago

V cool. Is there a way to publicly verify a transaction went through? Or they send a screenshot?

pacoWebConsult 5y ago
I assume this is where the integration with Steam comes into play. Checking the seller's inventory and the buyer's inventory
- martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
  Correct
martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
They do it through a unique link from our platform. And once signed in as a seller you will get notifications and sms when you have a trade

xmaayy 5y ago

I know there are a lot of disparate services like SkinBaron[0] for individual games. Is your value-add that you're regulated / you can act as a middle-man for any steam items? [0] https://skinbaron.de/en https://skinbaron.de/en

martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
Our main value adds is that we can allow minors to trade safely. You have to be 18 at Skinbaron. Another is that Skinbaron charges over 20 percent total.
- texasbigdata 5y ago
  Race to the bottom, ignoring the winner-take-all scenario where you do everything for everyone, when the next group comes in at 2% + copy pastes your entire website copy and you’ve already inoculated to the end market that this solution works, which they piggy back on to get traction....can you survive more than a few qualified competitors and actually make it to cash flow break even? And why won’t this be a “many make no profit” type of market that settles with many undifferentiated sellers with close to substinance level terminal margins? Obviously marketplaces are great, your product market fit seems strong, and you have both demographics and GMV trends behind you; but you’re in a space with passionate people who might do things for free (like people host or participate in gaming forums or discords). Even at a few engineers you’re burning cash for quite a while, but you’re touching minors (sorry, no pun) in highly regulated markets like Europe, so you probably need a few compliance dedicated FTEs. How do you resolve disputes where it’s not QUITE the $50k skin and they sue? Or do you require arbitration at signup? How does this work in the first 3 years until you hopefully win? VC funded burn?
  - sushid 5y ago
    It's an escrow + marketplace service. Your argument can be used against anything like eBay, Etsy, Poshmark, etc. You're assuming that the OP stagnates while copycats emerge around them, which is also a horrible assumption. Also, "free" cannot host websites, hire workers, add features (as quickly). It's funny you mention that their service will require multiple compliance officers while you simultaneously think there's also someone who can do it for free because they're passionate. Lastly, a skin is a skin. There's no "not quite like it" because it's a digital good, not a sandwich. I'm sure they'll use their retained lawyer when someone sues for 50k. Overall, it sounds like you're not even against their specific product, but the idea of being a venture funded startup.

ibaikov 5y ago

But this is against TOS, isn't it?

Nadya 5y ago
Since when did rules/laws start mattering for vc-backed startups? Continue paying fines until you're large enough to bribe, I mean lobby, for the law to change. It's just cost of doing business. It's very difficult to go after/shut down sites that breach ToS like this. See nearly every gold-selling site for any MMORPG in existence. They do sometimes get shutdown eventually but typically after many years and they often re-open with a new brand name.
- ibaikov 5y ago
  Honestly it's just bittersweet that YC does due dilligence like this for gaming startups. I mean some of them are cool businesses (like this one), but I'm a little salty since selling items not through steam is absolutely against valve's TOS. Remember that startup that wanted to do an mmo with thousands of players, VR etc etc and the demo was a compilation of free assets in UE4..? Ok, now back to work.
  - martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
    It is not against valves terms of service. They actually embrace the developement community around steam and their games
    - ibaikov 5y ago
      Valve only allows non-commercial use [1], and selling items not on steam marketplace is clearly against it. [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ (2 A)
      - martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
        This is for the steam client, and thi agreement is mainly aimed at content/game developers

hamhamed 5y ago

changing currency doesn't seem to work for me, stuck in EUR. Anyways, this is great. Between lootbear, csmoney, and steam marketplace, I think i like your model best since it translates directly to cold hard cash. However, last I seen this model in the wild, it got banned.. re: OPSkins. How are you circumventing that?

martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
OpSkins got banned because they tried to circumvent the 7 day tradelock, and they we also moving closer to the position csgoempire have today which is skin gambling. We dont want to be that. We want to do for skins, what coinbase did for crypto

telesilla 5y ago

I'd love to see this made available to the Spanish market next, will follow and see how you do.

martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
You can actually use it in Spain, Portugal, Brazil and more. However you have to live with it being in English for now

devrand 5y ago

The fact that you need to hand over a Steam API key is really worrisome, and the FAQ entry for it isn't all that reassuring [1]. You're basically just saying "no it's cool trust us". Are you encrypting these API keys? Do you delete them after each transaction? It's kind of a honeypot if you're holding onto the keys. You don't have the ability to revoke them so if they're ever compromised it's on your users to revoke them before misuse. It's worth noting that there's a ton of undocumented (by Valve) Web API methods [2]. If you just look at the official documentation [3] it misleads you into thinking it's a read-only API for fairly basic data. I presume that GamerPay is relying upon some of these undocumented APIs as part of their implementation. [1]: https://intercom.help/gamerpay/en/articles/5313751-is-it-safe-to-hand-over-my-api-key https://intercom.help/gamerpay/en/articles/5313751-is-it-saf... [2]: https://steamapi.xpaw.me/ https://steamapi.xpaw.me/ [3]: https://steamcommunity.com/dev https://steamcommunity.com/dev

Gamerpay_mhs 5y ago
Thanks for the feedback on the FAQ and thoughts. Agreed that the Steam API key is sensitive data and thus all keys, user data etc are secured by appropriate encryption. Same goes for cash transactions & wallets that are handled by partners that are compliant with the financial authorities (to prevent eg money laundering). We work with the Steam APIs on a daily basis and yes some part of the documentation could be more up to date.. and it's not Stripe quality!
- x4e 5y ago
  Why do you need the API key? Why not just do it like a traditional escrow service: you receive both the money and the item traded to a steam account you own. Then once both are received you send the money and you send a trade request giving the item to the receiver?
  - andruby 5y ago
    Would that mean Steam takes their cut twice? Or can you "gift" items for free?

FanaHOVA 5y ago

What do you think is wrong with existing solutions like OPSkins (RIP, played themselves), Bitskins, etc?

martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
Most marketplaces fall under obscure or to expensive. And pretty much none of them have built a compliant way of onbording minors who suffer the most from scamming. So they are all 18 plus.

w-ll 5y ago

Is it not possible to sell being a US user? Cant get past "Payout & account information". Revoked my key for the current.

martinlykkesuhr 5y ago
For the moment you cannot sell as a US citizen. We hope to silve this in the near future