5 ms·

There's a big difference between asking questions in good faith and being open to answers, and JAQing off. And I encounter a lot more of the latter than the fo

There's a big difference between asking questions in good faith and being open to answers, and JAQing off. And I encounter a lot more of the latter than the former...

alkonaut 5y ago
Most good faith questions have easily accessible answers (which are repeated by trustworthy sources 24/7). At this point adults who question whether they should get the vaccine are most likely doing so in bad faith is my perception.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  Unfortunately there are people whose information bubble makes them doubtful of the easily accessible answers by trustworthy sources because their social environment has cast doubts on whoever happens to be the authority in their country. It's very hard to reach them. I have trouble reaching my otherwise reasonable friends and family. They are not flat-earthers nor alt-right or whatever. Most were not even anti-vax before this. The most common argument is that since their government is full of incompetent and corrupt people (and they adduce a dozen of examples about anything random that happened before and after the pandemic, including bridges collapsing to whatever scandal du-jour happened five years ago or some illogical covid rules they made in the past years, or that some expert is scaremongering everybody in TV every day and acts a bit like a jerk), then "it follows" that the whole thing cannot be trusted and perhaps whoever is saying the opposite may be right (which easily becomes "must be right").
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    They are disregarding doctors and scientists all over the planet, because they think their politicians are incompetent? I think these people are beyond rescue. The period for trying to appeal to people or convince them to take the shot is over. Now we should simply let whoever doesn’t want the shot (completely valid position to take! Their body after all) not participate in anything like events, education, workplaces, restaurants… People are free to choose to participate in society. Importantly, in the US insurers need to bump premiums to insane levels - or simply not cover Covid treatment for voluntarily unvaccinated. Once people pay through the nose to avoid it, or can’t go to a restaurant, I think it’ll turn out they weren’t very hesitant to begin with, it was all just political. Luckily these people could get an antibody test instead of a vaccine pass soon - because they’ll all get it eventually.
    - antisthenes 5y ago
      > They are disregarding doctors and scientists all over the planet, because they think their politicians are incompetent? It's a direct result of the toxic "every opinion counts" culture that is so pervasive in the United States (this isn't obvious to insiders, but quite clearly evident to immigrants and people who come from different cultures). This results in people believing obviously junk sources on information - because they aren't discounting them, and treating them as equal in value to scientific articles. E.g. treating someone's personal blog that cherry picks statistics from random countries worldwide and a PubMed Meta-analysis of 10+ articles with equal weight. Or treating the opinions of friends and family above expert recommendations. I don't understand it and never will, so I don't know how to solve this underlying issue. My guess is by investing heavily in education and teaching kids critical thinking skills, and shaming those who disregard experts.
    - ithkuil 5y ago
      > They are disregarding doctors and scientists all over the planet, because they think their politicians are incompetent? Yeah, it's silly isn't? The logic goes something like this: "They (politicians) control which doctors go on TV to speak and control which doctors are allowed to work in state hospitals, thus there is a selection bias in what we refer to as scientific consensus" I noticed that the harder you try to counteract this with arguments, no matter how good, the argument veers towards the good old self-fulfilling conspiracy thought process. I watched this conversation happen in otherwise reasonable people, in real time, people who otherwise didn't buy into consiparacy thinking about other topics. Is there something special about vaccines that triggers people? Something psychologically deeper than other things?
  - subsection1h 5y ago
    > They are not flat-earthers nor alt-right or whatever. Are they religious?
    - azth 5y ago
      What are you implying?
    - ithkuil 5y ago
      No. Most of the cohort I was talking about are left-leaning people, often vocally critical of the Catholic church, pro-gay rights, pro-choice, environmentalist, anti-racist etc. (I'm talking about Italy, not U.S.)

There's a big difference between asking questions in good faith and being open to answers, and JAQing off. And I encounter a lot more of the latter than the former...

alkonaut 5y ago

Most good faith questions have easily accessible answers (which are repeated by trustworthy sources 24/7). At this point adults who question whether they should get the vaccine are most likely doing so in bad faith is my perception.

ithkuil 5y ago
Unfortunately there are people whose information bubble makes them doubtful of the easily accessible answers by trustworthy sources because their social environment has cast doubts on whoever happens to be the authority in their country. It's very hard to reach them. I have trouble reaching my otherwise reasonable friends and family. They are not flat-earthers nor alt-right or whatever. Most were not even anti-vax before this. The most common argument is that since their government is full of incompetent and corrupt people (and they adduce a dozen of examples about anything random that happened before and after the pandemic, including bridges collapsing to whatever scandal du-jour happened five years ago or some illogical covid rules they made in the past years, or that some expert is scaremongering everybody in TV every day and acts a bit like a jerk), then "it follows" that the whole thing cannot be trusted and perhaps whoever is saying the opposite may be right (which easily becomes "must be right").
- alkonaut 5y ago
  They are disregarding doctors and scientists all over the planet, because they think their politicians are incompetent? I think these people are beyond rescue. The period for trying to appeal to people or convince them to take the shot is over. Now we should simply let whoever doesn’t want the shot (completely valid position to take! Their body after all) not participate in anything like events, education, workplaces, restaurants… People are free to choose to participate in society. Importantly, in the US insurers need to bump premiums to insane levels - or simply not cover Covid treatment for voluntarily unvaccinated. Once people pay through the nose to avoid it, or can’t go to a restaurant, I think it’ll turn out they weren’t very hesitant to begin with, it was all just political. Luckily these people could get an antibody test instead of a vaccine pass soon - because they’ll all get it eventually.
  - antisthenes 5y ago
    > They are disregarding doctors and scientists all over the planet, because they think their politicians are incompetent? It's a direct result of the toxic "every opinion counts" culture that is so pervasive in the United States (this isn't obvious to insiders, but quite clearly evident to immigrants and people who come from different cultures). This results in people believing obviously junk sources on information - because they aren't discounting them, and treating them as equal in value to scientific articles. E.g. treating someone's personal blog that cherry picks statistics from random countries worldwide and a PubMed Meta-analysis of 10+ articles with equal weight. Or treating the opinions of friends and family above expert recommendations. I don't understand it and never will, so I don't know how to solve this underlying issue. My guess is by investing heavily in education and teaching kids critical thinking skills, and shaming those who disregard experts.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    > They are disregarding doctors and scientists all over the planet, because they think their politicians are incompetent? Yeah, it's silly isn't? The logic goes something like this: "They (politicians) control which doctors go on TV to speak and control which doctors are allowed to work in state hospitals, thus there is a selection bias in what we refer to as scientific consensus" I noticed that the harder you try to counteract this with arguments, no matter how good, the argument veers towards the good old self-fulfilling conspiracy thought process. I watched this conversation happen in otherwise reasonable people, in real time, people who otherwise didn't buy into consiparacy thinking about other topics. Is there something special about vaccines that triggers people? Something psychologically deeper than other things?
- subsection1h 5y ago
  > They are not flat-earthers nor alt-right or whatever. Are they religious?
  - azth 5y ago
    What are you implying?
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    No. Most of the cohort I was talking about are left-leaning people, often vocally critical of the Catholic church, pro-gay rights, pro-choice, environmentalist, anti-racist etc. (I'm talking about Italy, not U.S.)