5 ms·

Of course they are. When the dominant narrative is that America is a racist hellscape, built on oppression and plunder then things like patriotism and civic spi

Of course they are. When the dominant narrative is that America is a racist hellscape, built on oppression and plunder then things like patriotism and civic spirit seem absurd, quaint notions, ripe for ridicule.

luffapi 5y ago
That’s not the “dominant narrative”, it’s historical fact. Slavery, segregation and genocide of Native Americans aren’t fabricated stories, they actually happened. Patriotism is for fools. Civil spirit starts with not rejecting citizenship for tax reasons.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  Every border in the world is built upon blood and war, not any different really.
  - libbroscrubber 5y ago
    The US had segregation until 1964. It's pretty much done non-stop military adventurism since it's inception. Yes, most countries are unethical and morally repulsive, but the US is at the very top of the heap and it has been for a long time.
fourthwaveska 5y ago
Patriotism? What exactly is that word to you? To me it is merey loyalty to mud.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Caring about your society, institutional values, and countrymen.
  - fourthwaveska 5y ago
    My life experiences have made me incapable of empathizing with this view. My fellow citizens have never had my back, and I disagree with most everything they hold dear, as they disagree with most everything about me. I don't hate America or its people, I'm just not that into them. Patriotic people love to tell others "If you don't love America, leave it". Well, as my patriotic act to those great patriotic Americans .. I left.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Sounds like it was for the best. Are you happy with your new country? Any sense of patriotism there (using my definition)?
      - fourthwaveska 5y ago
        Nope. Nada. None. Zilch. But enjoy singing some bad national anthem and crying while waving a flag or maybe killing someone who disrespects your flag, or whatever it is the patriotic kids do today. We really have no country or stable home right now. Once we get to Spain we will love being there, but we will still hold no sense of patriotism. I'm not willing to fight, murder, or die for a nation. Some people are wired that way, violent ideation of being a hero, dying for god and country or whatever, but it ain't me.
        zarkov99 5y ago
        That level of detachment is only affordable to you because of the generations of people that fought, murdered and died for the nations on which you now can so comfortably live. Perhaps you think that work is done. Maybe you are right, at this moment, but if history is any guide, it could all change in an instant and you could need people who are willing to fight for your way of live.
        fourthwaveska 5y ago
        I don't owe those people who came before me anything. They did what they did of their own volition, I had zero say in the matter. My mother could easily have been in Russia, Crete or Antarctica when I crawled out of her birth canal. The concept of patriotism and nationalism is purely ridiculous to me. Patriotism is the erroneous belief that you are special because of what side of a line your mother was on when you were born. I think maybe it makes more sense if you believe in god or some other superstition. People live, people die, the world goes on, that's it.
revolvingocelot 5y ago
This line of argumentation is always so strange to me because it supposes a strange sort of emotional fragility in the rich that I can't quite square with the exceptionalism we allllll know they possess. You think the dominant narrative is that America is a racist hellscape? No, no; America is the greatest country on the planet. I heard it on the news. Surely the increasingly consolidated media, owned by the emotionally-fragile rich, could address the dominance of that narrative? Failure to come together to address such a horrifying distortion of reality, after all, would be extremely dangerous to our democracy[0]. In seriousness, I think that your conclusion that the rich are leaving because of culture-war issues is unsupported by the assertion that the dominant narrative is that Murica sucks. The dominant narrative is that America is the land of the free, dude. Unpleasant realities like Trump profiting from the Secret Service having to stay at his hotels, or the dynastic nature of Presidential politics, or how the IRS goes after the poor for lack of the funding that hitting the big-time cheats would require, or how three of the most recent dynasties had ties to an infamous pedophile, or how that pedophile "killed himself" while in high-profile protective custody -- it's all unimportant. Propaganda both subtle and gross smooths things over. The Pledge of Allegiance seems very, very strange to many other cultures, especially Western ones. I think it's far more likely that they're striking out, as their ancestors once did, to seek a better life. If I were in the habit of cluttering my environment with effluent ponds of various negative externalities, I too would probably want to up and move somewhere with more of a pleasant aspect. Especially if I got to keep all the proceeds of my previous exploitations. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggCipbiHwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggCipbiHwE
- zarkov99 5y ago
  I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying the rich are leaving because of culture war issues. I am saying that the incessant claims that America is just the worse erodes the social fabric for everyone, including the rich, and one manifestation of such erosion is that it becomes morally acceptable to cheat the system. After all it is a corrupt, racist, oppressive, hypocriptical imperialistic system, so why pay into it?
  - revolvingocelot 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

luffapi 5y ago

That’s not the “dominant narrative”, it’s historical fact. Slavery, segregation and genocide of Native Americans aren’t fabricated stories, they actually happened. Patriotism is for fools. Civil spirit starts with not rejecting citizenship for tax reasons.

Dma54rhs 5y ago
Every border in the world is built upon blood and war, not any different really.
- libbroscrubber 5y ago
  The US had segregation until 1964. It's pretty much done non-stop military adventurism since it's inception. Yes, most countries are unethical and morally repulsive, but the US is at the very top of the heap and it has been for a long time.

fourthwaveska 5y ago

Patriotism? What exactly is that word to you? To me it is merey loyalty to mud.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
Caring about your society, institutional values, and countrymen.
- fourthwaveska 5y ago
  My life experiences have made me incapable of empathizing with this view. My fellow citizens have never had my back, and I disagree with most everything they hold dear, as they disagree with most everything about me. I don't hate America or its people, I'm just not that into them. Patriotic people love to tell others "If you don't love America, leave it". Well, as my patriotic act to those great patriotic Americans .. I left.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    Sounds like it was for the best. Are you happy with your new country? Any sense of patriotism there (using my definition)?
    - fourthwaveska 5y ago
      Nope. Nada. None. Zilch. But enjoy singing some bad national anthem and crying while waving a flag or maybe killing someone who disrespects your flag, or whatever it is the patriotic kids do today. We really have no country or stable home right now. Once we get to Spain we will love being there, but we will still hold no sense of patriotism. I'm not willing to fight, murder, or die for a nation. Some people are wired that way, violent ideation of being a hero, dying for god and country or whatever, but it ain't me.
      - zarkov99 5y ago
        That level of detachment is only affordable to you because of the generations of people that fought, murdered and died for the nations on which you now can so comfortably live. Perhaps you think that work is done. Maybe you are right, at this moment, but if history is any guide, it could all change in an instant and you could need people who are willing to fight for your way of live.
        fourthwaveska 5y ago
        I don't owe those people who came before me anything. They did what they did of their own volition, I had zero say in the matter. My mother could easily have been in Russia, Crete or Antarctica when I crawled out of her birth canal. The concept of patriotism and nationalism is purely ridiculous to me. Patriotism is the erroneous belief that you are special because of what side of a line your mother was on when you were born. I think maybe it makes more sense if you believe in god or some other superstition. People live, people die, the world goes on, that's it.

revolvingocelot 5y ago

This line of argumentation is always so strange to me because it supposes a strange sort of emotional fragility in the rich that I can't quite square with the exceptionalism we allllll know they possess. You think the dominant narrative is that America is a racist hellscape? No, no; America is the greatest country on the planet. I heard it on the news. Surely the increasingly consolidated media, owned by the emotionally-fragile rich, could address the dominance of that narrative? Failure to come together to address such a horrifying distortion of reality, after all, would be extremely dangerous to our democracy[0]. In seriousness, I think that your conclusion that the rich are leaving because of culture-war issues is unsupported by the assertion that the dominant narrative is that Murica sucks. The dominant narrative is that America is the land of the free, dude. Unpleasant realities like Trump profiting from the Secret Service having to stay at his hotels, or the dynastic nature of Presidential politics, or how the IRS goes after the poor for lack of the funding that hitting the big-time cheats would require, or how three of the most recent dynasties had ties to an infamous pedophile, or how that pedophile "killed himself" while in high-profile protective custody -- it's all unimportant. Propaganda both subtle and gross smooths things over. The Pledge of Allegiance seems very, very strange to many other cultures, especially Western ones. I think it's far more likely that they're striking out, as their ancestors once did, to seek a better life. If I were in the habit of cluttering my environment with effluent ponds of various negative externalities, I too would probably want to up and move somewhere with more of a pleasant aspect. Especially if I got to keep all the proceeds of my previous exploitations. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggCipbiHwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggCipbiHwE

zarkov99 5y ago
I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying the rich are leaving because of culture war issues. I am saying that the incessant claims that America is just the worse erodes the social fabric for everyone, including the rich, and one manifestation of such erosion is that it becomes morally acceptable to cheat the system. After all it is a corrupt, racist, oppressive, hypocriptical imperialistic system, so why pay into it?
- revolvingocelot 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]