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You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about who is giving up citizenship here. Obviously there are some high profile people who are still highly involved w

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about who is giving up citizenship here. Obviously there are some high profile people who are still highly involved with the US, but I'd imagine a lot of folks doing this are those who don't live in America and don't want to deal with the hassle and cost of filing US tax returns every year when they earn no money in the US.

tartoran 5y ago
This article is about wealthy people. We all know they are paying relatively no taxes or doing their best to. Yes, Americans who moved to Europe and are happily making a living there are also giving up US citizenship but end up paying taxes in 2 places or deal with a lot of hassle they’d rather not
- rwmj 5y ago
  No one's moving the Europe for the lower taxes.
  - alephnan 5y ago
    Cyprus gives you access to the EU while being a tax haven. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/11/9/21547055/eric-schmidt-google-citizen-cyprus-european-union https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/11/9/21547055/eric-schmidt-g...
    - pjerem 5y ago
      Well, you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in ? So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus. And on top of that, Cyprus is one of the few european countries that are not yet in the Schengen area. So you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers.
      - alephnan 5y ago
        > So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus I think Eric Schmidt can afford that > you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in Yes, I know this. I live abroad. Yes, every country has taxes. The tax rates are not the same. Additionally, countries like Singapore have zero capital gains tax. Executives can just take a symbolic job and pay themselves a symbolic salary, but they're not getting rich off their salaries
      - cblconfederate 5y ago
        Ehm, you can travel to all of EU, the only thing that changes is you stand on a different line in the airport
        iso1631 5y ago
        Not just travel - many people can travel to all of the EU. A Cyprus citizen has the right to live and work anywhere in the EU.
        cblconfederate 5y ago
        correct. you re not in any way confined to the island
      - _0ffh 5y ago
        > you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers No you won't, you'll just have to pass a border control whenever you leave or re-enter the country. That's hardly a huge hindrance, unless you're wanted.
      - TacticalCoder 5y ago
        > Well, you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in ? So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus. Remote work? Or own a foreign company and pay yourself in dividends? These are extremely common cases. > And on top of that, Cyprus is one of the few european countries that are not yet in the Schengen area. So you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers. That's not how Schengen works: Schengen is about being able to freely travel in the Schengen area without having to even show your passport / national ID card. For example I regularly cross borders, by car, between Belgium, France, Spain, Monaco and Andorra (Monaco is Schengen while Andorra, wonderful place on earth btw, is not, but Andorra has got agreements for free travel with France and Spain anyway) and I've never been asked my ID once. Heck, lately I've always been doing my PCR tests, as officially required due to the sars-cov-2 restrictions, and although it's mandatory to cross borders I've never been asked to show them. A passport from Cyprus allows you to travel, without the need for a visa, to most countries in the world if I'm not mistaken. The thing is: because Cyprus is an island you'll very often be flying to/from there and you'll have to show your passport. But you're definitely not stuck on the island.
    - cblconfederate 5y ago
      It's no different than ireland (same % taxation), are they both tax havens? Cyprus is not on the OECD tax havens list for years, and in fact are considered a rather safe choice, hence the rise in popularity of their residence/citizenship programs (and their fees)
      - alephnan 5y ago
        > It's no different than ireland (same % taxation), are they both tax havens? Any country can be a tax haven if you're not already living there and rich enough to negotiate special terms. Greece and Cyprus offers citizenship-by-investment, and there are many ways wealthy people can 'invest' in the same way they do 'philanthropy'.
        cblconfederate 5y ago
        greece does not offer citizenship-by-investment (and cyprus' program has been suspended)
    - 4r4r4r 5y ago
      Cyprus! Hilarious. My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost. March 28, 2013, 06:00:15 PM https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160292 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160292 P.S. The worst thing is, that even a month ago I was suspecting that things can go wrong. In February, I several times called my banker and lawyer and asked them if money on the account is safe, mentioning that article in Financial Times. But they convinced me that there is no reason to worry, and even if country goes default, in no way current accounts may be affected. "This is European Union and banks here can't just grab your money and go" I was told. I got a hard lesson and now I know the meaning of phrase "TRUST NO ONE". The rest of the money (100k EUR) are still subject to Capital Control and we can only transfer 5K monthly. Today I had a conversation with a manager from Laiki Bank. He has been honest and confirmed that we may forget about anything over 100K as it's already spent to pay country's debts. Also, I was warned that the financial situation in the country is getting worse and worse and we should be ready to lose even part of insured (under 100K) money during this year (this is why they keep capital control enforced). By the way, this style of "bank restructuring" is going to be adopted in the whole European Union. Soon, everyone's uninsured money (over 100K EUR) in EU banks will be at risk of seizure.
  - moonchrome 5y ago
    There are quite a bit of places in EU with low capital gains tax and can be gorgeous to live in if you're wealthy. For example Croatia is a EU member - capital gains tax is flat 12%, and is a popular tourist destination with beautiful coast. It's not a bad deal if you're a remote freelancer - you end up paying like 20% in taxes total + something like 300€/month flat for health insurance and minimal pension contributions. Monaco is the place if you're super rich.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Monaco?
  - pwinnski 5y ago
    On the contrary! The overall tax burden of many European may be lower than that of the US when you compare like for like. That is, the cost of all taxes in Europe and the cost of all taxes and the fees paid for equivalent services in the US. For most people, that's taxes in Europe vs taxes + health insurance premiums in the US. Even if the combined totals are equivalent or higher in Europe, government-provided healthcare provides cost predictability that doesn't exist in the US. One year I might pay a much lower amount in the US, while the next year a single medical procedure could easily double my expenses.
    - darksaints 5y ago
      That might be true for a lot of people, but not for wealthy people.
    - uCantCauseUCant 5y ago
      Also, lots of us taxes are hiding in plain sight as "mandatory services". "Gated Community" is basically a different version of social transfer tax. Health system is another huge "mandatory tax". Enormous debts to complete education, whos equivalent you can get for free in europe. If you sum it all honestly up, the us is a pretty bad deal.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    If you're software engineer in Poland and spend some time architecting your contract, you can pay only 5% income tax (+ irrelevant amount for social security) as "R&D tax relief for commercializing IP rights". Point you're making applies to countries like Belgium or France.
    - nivenkos 5y ago
      You'll still get like 10% of a US salary though.
      - oblio 5y ago
        10% is a gross exaggeration, though. Romania has lower salaries than Poland, as far as I know, and in Romania as a senior engineer in a decent company you can get a total <<net>> compensation of €3.5k - €4k per month, that would be ~$4k - $4.8k per month, so ~$48k - ~58k. Again, net. And probably more since there are companies that give you RSUs/ESPPs, so you can go along for the ride. Not as many as in the US, obviously, but a decent chunk. So you could even push towards something like $70k. I think even at the biggest FAANGS in the US, you total <<net>> compensation as a senior engineer will be $250k-$300k, leaving the ratio somewhere around 4-5x (and this is for a super limited set of companies and positions; I'd imagine that the average ratio would be closer to 2-3x). And don't forget that local living expenses are minimal. You'd get to keep maybe even 90% of your salary.
        goodpoint 5y ago
        10% is a gross exaggeration but "the average ratio would be closer to 2-3x" sounds equally exaggerated in the other direction.
        oblio 5y ago
        The median US gross salary for US software developers is $108k. I imagine that's $60k net or less. The median Romanian net salary for software developers is RON 7000 per month. That's about €1400 or $1600 per month, so $19.2K, net. 3x. You were saying?
  - peteretep 5y ago
    I am executing a residency change to Bulgaria at the moment, in no small part for the taxes
  - berinateni 5y ago
    Cyprus is in Europe
    - tartoran 5y ago
      Yes, Cyprus is in the Mediterranean Sea close to Turkey, Israel and Lebanon but it is the EU.

tartoran 5y ago

This article is about wealthy people. We all know they are paying relatively no taxes or doing their best to. Yes, Americans who moved to Europe and are happily making a living there are also giving up US citizenship but end up paying taxes in 2 places or deal with a lot of hassle they’d rather not

rwmj 5y ago
No one's moving the Europe for the lower taxes.
- alephnan 5y ago
  Cyprus gives you access to the EU while being a tax haven. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/11/9/21547055/eric-schmidt-google-citizen-cyprus-european-union https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/11/9/21547055/eric-schmidt-g...
  - pjerem 5y ago
    Well, you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in ? So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus. And on top of that, Cyprus is one of the few european countries that are not yet in the Schengen area. So you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers.
    - alephnan 5y ago
      > So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus I think Eric Schmidt can afford that > you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in Yes, I know this. I live abroad. Yes, every country has taxes. The tax rates are not the same. Additionally, countries like Singapore have zero capital gains tax. Executives can just take a symbolic job and pay themselves a symbolic salary, but they're not getting rich off their salaries
    - cblconfederate 5y ago
      Ehm, you can travel to all of EU, the only thing that changes is you stand on a different line in the airport
      - iso1631 5y ago
        Not just travel - many people can travel to all of the EU. A Cyprus citizen has the right to live and work anywhere in the EU.
        cblconfederate 5y ago
        correct. you re not in any way confined to the island
    - _0ffh 5y ago
      > you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers No you won't, you'll just have to pass a border control whenever you leave or re-enter the country. That's hardly a huge hindrance, unless you're wanted.
    - TacticalCoder 5y ago
      > Well, you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in ? So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus. Remote work? Or own a foreign company and pay yourself in dividends? These are extremely common cases. > And on top of that, Cyprus is one of the few european countries that are not yet in the Schengen area. So you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers. That's not how Schengen works: Schengen is about being able to freely travel in the Schengen area without having to even show your passport / national ID card. For example I regularly cross borders, by car, between Belgium, France, Spain, Monaco and Andorra (Monaco is Schengen while Andorra, wonderful place on earth btw, is not, but Andorra has got agreements for free travel with France and Spain anyway) and I've never been asked my ID once. Heck, lately I've always been doing my PCR tests, as officially required due to the sars-cov-2 restrictions, and although it's mandatory to cross borders I've never been asked to show them. A passport from Cyprus allows you to travel, without the need for a visa, to most countries in the world if I'm not mistaken. The thing is: because Cyprus is an island you'll very often be flying to/from there and you'll have to show your passport. But you're definitely not stuck on the island.
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    It's no different than ireland (same % taxation), are they both tax havens? Cyprus is not on the OECD tax havens list for years, and in fact are considered a rather safe choice, hence the rise in popularity of their residence/citizenship programs (and their fees)
    - alephnan 5y ago
      > It's no different than ireland (same % taxation), are they both tax havens? Any country can be a tax haven if you're not already living there and rich enough to negotiate special terms. Greece and Cyprus offers citizenship-by-investment, and there are many ways wealthy people can 'invest' in the same way they do 'philanthropy'.
      - cblconfederate 5y ago
        greece does not offer citizenship-by-investment (and cyprus' program has been suspended)
  - 4r4r4r 5y ago
    Cyprus! Hilarious. My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost. March 28, 2013, 06:00:15 PM https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160292 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160292 P.S. The worst thing is, that even a month ago I was suspecting that things can go wrong. In February, I several times called my banker and lawyer and asked them if money on the account is safe, mentioning that article in Financial Times. But they convinced me that there is no reason to worry, and even if country goes default, in no way current accounts may be affected. "This is European Union and banks here can't just grab your money and go" I was told. I got a hard lesson and now I know the meaning of phrase "TRUST NO ONE". The rest of the money (100k EUR) are still subject to Capital Control and we can only transfer 5K monthly. Today I had a conversation with a manager from Laiki Bank. He has been honest and confirmed that we may forget about anything over 100K as it's already spent to pay country's debts. Also, I was warned that the financial situation in the country is getting worse and worse and we should be ready to lose even part of insured (under 100K) money during this year (this is why they keep capital control enforced). By the way, this style of "bank restructuring" is going to be adopted in the whole European Union. Soon, everyone's uninsured money (over 100K EUR) in EU banks will be at risk of seizure.
- moonchrome 5y ago
  There are quite a bit of places in EU with low capital gains tax and can be gorgeous to live in if you're wealthy. For example Croatia is a EU member - capital gains tax is flat 12%, and is a popular tourist destination with beautiful coast. It's not a bad deal if you're a remote freelancer - you end up paying like 20% in taxes total + something like 300€/month flat for health insurance and minimal pension contributions. Monaco is the place if you're super rich.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Monaco?
- pwinnski 5y ago
  On the contrary! The overall tax burden of many European may be lower than that of the US when you compare like for like. That is, the cost of all taxes in Europe and the cost of all taxes and the fees paid for equivalent services in the US. For most people, that's taxes in Europe vs taxes + health insurance premiums in the US. Even if the combined totals are equivalent or higher in Europe, government-provided healthcare provides cost predictability that doesn't exist in the US. One year I might pay a much lower amount in the US, while the next year a single medical procedure could easily double my expenses.
  - darksaints 5y ago
    That might be true for a lot of people, but not for wealthy people.
  - uCantCauseUCant 5y ago
    Also, lots of us taxes are hiding in plain sight as "mandatory services". "Gated Community" is basically a different version of social transfer tax. Health system is another huge "mandatory tax". Enormous debts to complete education, whos equivalent you can get for free in europe. If you sum it all honestly up, the us is a pretty bad deal.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  If you're software engineer in Poland and spend some time architecting your contract, you can pay only 5% income tax (+ irrelevant amount for social security) as "R&D tax relief for commercializing IP rights". Point you're making applies to countries like Belgium or France.
  - nivenkos 5y ago
    You'll still get like 10% of a US salary though.
    - oblio 5y ago
      10% is a gross exaggeration, though. Romania has lower salaries than Poland, as far as I know, and in Romania as a senior engineer in a decent company you can get a total <<net>> compensation of €3.5k - €4k per month, that would be ~$4k - $4.8k per month, so ~$48k - ~58k. Again, net. And probably more since there are companies that give you RSUs/ESPPs, so you can go along for the ride. Not as many as in the US, obviously, but a decent chunk. So you could even push towards something like $70k. I think even at the biggest FAANGS in the US, you total <<net>> compensation as a senior engineer will be $250k-$300k, leaving the ratio somewhere around 4-5x (and this is for a super limited set of companies and positions; I'd imagine that the average ratio would be closer to 2-3x). And don't forget that local living expenses are minimal. You'd get to keep maybe even 90% of your salary.
      - goodpoint 5y ago
        10% is a gross exaggeration but "the average ratio would be closer to 2-3x" sounds equally exaggerated in the other direction.
        oblio 5y ago
        The median US gross salary for US software developers is $108k. I imagine that's $60k net or less. The median Romanian net salary for software developers is RON 7000 per month. That's about €1400 or $1600 per month, so $19.2K, net. 3x. You were saying?
- peteretep 5y ago
  I am executing a residency change to Bulgaria at the moment, in no small part for the taxes
- berinateni 5y ago
  Cyprus is in Europe
  - tartoran 5y ago
    Yes, Cyprus is in the Mediterranean Sea close to Turkey, Israel and Lebanon but it is the EU.