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I do feel like HN often needs to remember that HN readers are not even close to the average population. We are mostly engineers. The HN sentiment toward designe

I do feel like HN often needs to remember that HN readers are not even close to the average population. We are mostly engineers. The HN sentiment toward designers can sometimes be rather crass and I don't care for it. It feels like there's a general sentiment that the engineers on HN "know better" than designers. One of the main reason designers exist is to help design things that most people can use and historically and generally, engineers are NOT good at this. Divisional labour through expertise. Remember - most people don't care about stuff that we do. UI changes are generally based on research that we're generally NOT experts on. Just because HN readers and even redditors don't like Firefox's design doesn't mean it's bad design. These two segments make up a tiny proportion of the ~100m users. I'm also not saying it's good design, but be careful when approaching this topic since it's more nuanced than you think.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
On the other hand, I find that a lot of "engineers", if that's what we're calling ourselves, have a tendency to completely underestimate and denigrate the so-called "average user" [0]. They often construct some strawman that's dumb or oblivious or easily fooled when constructing an argument. Well, I don't think that's the case. Yes, there are users out there who meet those criteria, but there are also "engineers" who do. By and large, just because they aren't "engineers" doesn't mean they don't largely have the same concerns as everyone else who uses a PC: They want to get their work done, they don't like interruptions to their workflow, they don't like change for the sake of it, and they don't appreciate slow and unresponsive UI. "Engineers" are a subset of user who just happens to think a bit too highly of themselves because they use VSCode and JavaScript instead of Excel or Photoshop. We may not be experts on UI design, but you don't have to be a chef to know when the food you're served tastes lousy and you don't need to be a designer to know when bad UI is shoved down your throat. [0] I submit that the very concept of "average user" is a fictitious entity which only exists to be a strawman. See: https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
- 12ian34 5y ago
  Thanks for your considered reply. I agree that it's easy and relatively common to denigrate/underestimate/misunderstand users in other 'categories' to oneself. This is exactly why it's important to design for the common denominator (not intended to be derisory) when building a product that essentially needs to be the same (at its core) for all users, e.g. everyone downloads pretty much the same exact Firefox binary (excluding beta builds). My argument is that I'm giving Firefox designers the benefit of the doubt that they're doing that and that the UI changes made aren't "lousy" and "bad UI", but rather, a carefully considered approach to have a net benefit for all users. So, if you are suggesting that you consider Firefox to have "lousy" and "bad UI", that's fair but perhaps it's not what the average opinion is. I'm not claiming to know the average opinion on the Firefox UI changes but I'd guess that they're mostly indifferent if not positive.
  - thghtihadanacct 5y ago
    Im probably an above average user and im reading this on FF for whatever thats worth. Theres more to a browser than accommodating any individuals personal short-comings.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

On the other hand, I find that a lot of "engineers", if that's what we're calling ourselves, have a tendency to completely underestimate and denigrate the so-called "average user" [0]. They often construct some strawman that's dumb or oblivious or easily fooled when constructing an argument. Well, I don't think that's the case. Yes, there are users out there who meet those criteria, but there are also "engineers" who do. By and large, just because they aren't "engineers" doesn't mean they don't largely have the same concerns as everyone else who uses a PC: They want to get their work done, they don't like interruptions to their workflow, they don't like change for the sake of it, and they don't appreciate slow and unresponsive UI. "Engineers" are a subset of user who just happens to think a bit too highly of themselves because they use VSCode and JavaScript instead of Excel or Photoshop. We may not be experts on UI design, but you don't have to be a chef to know when the food you're served tastes lousy and you don't need to be a designer to know when bad UI is shoved down your throat. [0] I submit that the very concept of "average user" is a fictitious entity which only exists to be a strawman. See: https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...

12ian34 5y ago
Thanks for your considered reply. I agree that it's easy and relatively common to denigrate/underestimate/misunderstand users in other 'categories' to oneself. This is exactly why it's important to design for the common denominator (not intended to be derisory) when building a product that essentially needs to be the same (at its core) for all users, e.g. everyone downloads pretty much the same exact Firefox binary (excluding beta builds). My argument is that I'm giving Firefox designers the benefit of the doubt that they're doing that and that the UI changes made aren't "lousy" and "bad UI", but rather, a carefully considered approach to have a net benefit for all users. So, if you are suggesting that you consider Firefox to have "lousy" and "bad UI", that's fair but perhaps it's not what the average opinion is. I'm not claiming to know the average opinion on the Firefox UI changes but I'd guess that they're mostly indifferent if not positive.
- thghtihadanacct 5y ago
  Im probably an above average user and im reading this on FF for whatever thats worth. Theres more to a browser than accommodating any individuals personal short-comings.