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Anonymous targets Norway killer’s manifesto
- cschreiner 15y agoBad idea. The world needs to see what kind of a lunatic he is. The world needs to know his arguments in order to repeal.
- yummyfajitas 15y agoThe world needs to know his arguments in order to repeal or accept them. He seems to be a nut, but that doesn't mean his ideas are wrong.
- rbanffy 15y ago> but that doesn't mean his ideas are wrong. Agreed, but after reading a bit of it (I downloaded a file with MD5 of 9e72e26916c20481a1f6e4781fd4d505) I can spare you the pain. It's crap. Still, his actions make it necessary to repeal all of his arguments and assumptions.
- diolpah 15y ago"Still, his actions make it necessary to repeal all of his arguments and assumptions." Really? James Watson and William Shockley both said very unpopular things about race. Shockley advocated a policy of sterilizing lower class black people. Should we repeal all use and knowledge of DNA and semiconductors? Even if Shockley started killing black people as stage one eugenics, his actions would have absolutely no impact on his ideas. None.
- j_r_ 15y agoYes, but there is no train of thought from semiconductors to stupid ideas about eugenics. There _is_ one from anti-socialist rhetoric to killing members of a left party.
- jerf 15y ago"Yes, but there is no train of thought from semiconductors to stupid ideas about eugenics." You badly underestimate the perverse creativity of a paranoid schizophrenic. I've never seen that one but I've certainly seen things every bit as crazy. (I have a bit of a soft spot for paranoid schizophrenic rantings; it's like outsider art for philosophy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_art)
- rbanffy 15y agoMaybe we miss the point here. You can't argue the science behind transistors is correct (or, at least, the engineering) but you can show how bad things end up when we start recommending eugenics. The central idea of eugenics - that we can control our evolution the way we did with dogs or cattle - is not inherently flawed, but I wouldn't trust the evolution of our species to its current members. Before we think about building a better mankind, we need a better mankind.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago...but you can show how bad things end up when we start recommending eugenics. This is a perfect example of why it's bad to reject an idea simply because it has unpleasant proponents. If we rejected eugenics based on unpleasant associations, thousands of Ashkenazi Jewish children would have died a horrible death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay%E2%80%93Sachs_disease#Screening_success_with_Ashkenazi_Jews http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay%E2%80%93Sachs_disease#Scree...
- rbanffy 15y agoGood point. I have failed to find many points that do not involve racism and violence, but if you can find anything good in those 1500+ pages, please, share.
- savramescu 15y agoI don't need to know his arguments. His actions speak louder than any of his words. I actually like their idea. If he bombed because he wanted people to read it, then by tainting any copy Anonymous can make sure that he has failed.
- rl1987 15y agoYeah right... http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/343348504 http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/343348504
- pedram 15y ago"add stupid stuff"? Doing that might make people suspect that the original document is well-written and that the "stupid stuff" was added later.
- rbanffy 15y agoI'd like to point out it would be hard to add stuff that's more stupid than what he already wrote.
- vixen99 15y agoOne of the delights of HN is that the comments rarely include pointless epithets. So how about replacing 'stupid' with a sentence or two from his 'manifesto' and then telling us what you think is irrational or wrong with it?
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- rbanffy 15y ago"the fear of Islamisation is all but irrational." "While the radical feminist movement is embraced by present day Political Correctness ideology, derived from cultural Marxism," There are 1500 pages of nonsensical ranting, elaborately constructed with the most tortuous logic. It would take weeks to parse it, weeks I intend to dedicate to far nobler purposes.
- pedram 15y agoThe whole idea of national and ethnic pride is silly, I think George Carlin nails it in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgmjL6z2jY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgmjL6z2jY Regarding the supposed islamization of Europe, I think a large portion of the immigrants from muslim countries who moved to Europe belong to at least one of these groups: a)not muslim b)not interested in promoting islam c)looking to live in a more secular or free country d)like cold weather :) Could Europe do anything to stop the muslim immigrants from wanting to move to Europe instead of deporting them when they are already living in Europe as Breivik suggests? Maybe stop selling weapons to the leaders of countries who kill their own people for holding peaceful demonstrations? Or stop the wars for cheap oil? Too bad there's no way to undo the European colonization of muslim countries, cause that would definitely have helped.
- aw3c2 15y agoIdiots. A strong handling of this would be to collaboratively debunk his arguments. Censorship does not help anyone.
- yot 15y agoI agree, let's start here. Facts: Current birth rate among indigenous Europeans in most if not all European countries is and has been below replacement level for a few decades. Most population growth in Europe in the last few decades has been from immigration from outside Europe. The birth rate among non-indigenous Europeans in European countries is higher than indigenous birth rate. Projections (not fact): This trend doesn't appear to be changing and it looks like it will continue for many more decades. If the trend continues, in a few decades the genetic makeup of most Europeans will be more similar to that of non-European ethnic groups than to that of people who have lived in Europe for tens of thousands of years. Arguments (assuming projections are true): a) the projections above are a bad thing if you are an ethnic European and you predominantly carry genes that split from the ethnic groups of immigrants tens of thousands of years ago. b) the projections above don't matter c) the projections above are a good thing State why the projections are likely to be wrong, debunk argument a) or justify why arguments b/c are correct. Proceed.
- seabee 15y agoI believe your starting point is largely irrelevant, but first... A good justification for (b) can be found by determining the genetic diversity of indigenous populations from thousands of years ago and comparing to the present day. As an example the UK has had many 'immigrants' in just the past two thousand years alone, with the Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans being notable topics on a good school's History lessons. Nevertheless, I believe your arguments aren't particularly relevant to the issues held by these extremists, who fear Islamic culture more than they fear Muslims themselves. They view 'multiculturalism' as the replacement of indigenous culture. If you want to go anywhere with this, you have to debate this more nuanced (and less scientific) viewpoint.
- yot 15y ago
- Shenglong 15y agoWhy would anyone read a 1516 page document written by a maniac? Even sane pieces tend to be TL;DR these days.
- rbanffy 15y agoNo. His ideas should be repealed and refuted by reason and with an open debate. Anything other than that will make them stronger. There are many people who already believe them and, thanks to his actions, countless more will. They must be proved wrong and convinced they are wrong.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- cynicalkane 15y agoI downloaded a copy of the manifesto, read through the first few dozen pages or so, and skimmed through a few other parts. The table of contents suggests 90-year war plan to unite Europe under the Knights Templar and restore pan-European identity. It doesn't need to be altered--it's already unbelievably stupid. But he also knows a great deal about the political history of Europe and liberal thought, seen through a twisted lens. Furthermore, he follows a sort of Geert Wilders-like strain of Euro-nationalist ideas, dangerous ideas that have been gaining ground in parts of Europe. To alter this manifesto to include 'dumb things' is dangerous because first, it devalues the idiocy of his claims; second, readers will be more tempted to read it for the "good parts" while ignoring the "dumb parts"--who knows what parts were added, anyway? They'll be reading about the evils of Islam and multicultralism without understanding the fact--or dismissing it--that his ideas fit in a bizarre megalomaniacal framework of fantasy European domination, and deserve extreme scrutiny and mistrust.
- Fjolle 15y agoYes. It doesn't need to be altered for most people to think that it is incredibly stupid. People who would already tend to agree with his points might either ignore the added "dumb" parts, or just agree with them.
- brown9-2 15y agoI thought these guys were anti-censorship?
- wisty 15y agoA contrasting opinion: no sane person would really be moved by his ideas. But no-one wants to be a joke. Humiliating him, and his manifesto is an effective punishment, and maybe even a deterrent.
- hetman 15y agoWait. So their great idea is to give credence to his claims? The guy was convinced there's an organised Marxist agenda actively working in western society to distort truth and keep its citizens in the dark. This will just vindicate his claims in the eyes of anyone who was willing to buy it. And lets face it, the originals are going to be around a lot longer than the Anonymous spoofs because these kids are going to get bored and move onto something more interesting by next week/month/whatever. They can't outlast someone festering in hatred for years. A concerted censorship effort by anyone is the worst thing that can happen to the internet. No matter how righteous you feel your cause (of course everyone feels theirs is). Simply, the only way for wayward ideas to be uprooted is to expose them to the full light of scrutiny. Pushing them into dank corners, veiled by mystery, away from public discourse, will always find fertile ground in minds of individuals on the fringes searching for someone to blame for their woes. At the very best this is misguided cowardice.
- JamesBlair 15y agoYes. Their great idea is to give credence to his claims. And an audience. Don't forget that an Anonymous was one of the forces behind the Streisand effect of Tom Cruise's Scientology video. They know exactly what they're doing.
- peterwwillis 15y ago> They know exactly what they're doing. Oh yeah. A bunch of teens and really bored adults photoshopping pictures, posting gay furry anthropomorph fanfic and child porn must know EXACTLY what they're doing. This is the fucking streisand effect! This is the definition of it! They're trying to censor/cover up the original and make a big deal about it, so guess what's going to happen? More people will look for the original to see what it says. This is the worst Anon operation so far.
- JamesBlair 15y agoSome Anonymous also happen to be racists, neo-nazis and fascists. Some happen to be conspiracy nuts. Some happen to be well educated liberals. Some happen to be Hacker News readers. The PDF with the MD5 9e72e26916c20481a1f6e4781fd4d505 predates the announcement. This was, also, the only copy I could find, except for a docx version that's probably identical. It was also the copy linked to in Anders Behring Breivik's wikipedia article.
- xefer 15y agoI don't care what Anonymous "targets". Frankly, I don't care about Anonymous at all.
- rdouble 15y agoThis is clever. However, I read the manifesto over the weekend and am not sure what could be added or changed to make it seem more ridiculous.
- vixen99 15y agoRidiculous, stupid, idiotic: these words cut communication with people who have differing views. Difficult to believe you sat through 1500 pages (why?) and have only that comment to make. On the positive side, you've more dedication or is it stamina (?) than me.
- ForrestN 15y agoI don't know if this is actually a helpful action or not, and what, if any, consequences will arise, but it's certainly good marketing for Anonymous. Much of the public don't understand their more nuanced reasons for attacking companies like Sony. For many, Anonymous are those people who took out Playstation. Attempting to thwart the desires of someone who's universally accepted as a villain at least starts to complicate their image as villains themselves.
- adrianwaj 15y agoAnders Behring Breivik plagiarised 'Unabomber' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8658269/Norway-shooting-Anders-Behring-Breivik-plagiarised-Unabomber.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8658...
- jvdh 15y agoHe "plagiarised" many others as well. You have to wonder though whether plagiarism even applies to the ravings of a mad man.
- hackermom 15y agoMy first thought when seeing this was that it's not a very democratic thing to do. Ironic.
- edw 15y agoSo Anonymous wants the power to fabricate — or destroy — history, facts, ideas, and so forth? Welcome to the dystopia!