10 ms·

Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here? If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The freedom to swing your fist

Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here? If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of someone's nose Whoa, you've got that horridly twisted. It's not a human right to demand that others undergo a medical procedure for your own perceived interest. It's not a human right to demand others undergo a medical procedure, or be injected with something, because you've been told it will benefit you in some way. Every individual has complete choice and autonomy as to the medical procedures they undergo. That is the human right. >Article 6 – Consent 1. Any preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic medical intervention is only to be carried out with the prior, free and informed consent of the person concerned, based on adequate information. The consent should, where appropriate, be express and may be withdrawn by the person concerned at any time and for any reason without disadvantage or prejudice. http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=31058&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=31058&URL_DO=DO_TO...

shaklee3 5y ago
This isn't a medical procedure. You are certainly not allowed to make someone go through a medical procedure, since, you know, it doesn't affect you. Not being vaccinated affects everyone, so your choice of whether you get it or not is now going to have consequences on what you can do publicly. I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post.
- desine 5y ago
  >I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post. Because if I put something in my body only because my master tells me to, I am a slave. Through and through. Bodily autonomy is absolute. It's different than the Modern American definition of slavery, which is mostly based on the New World forms of slavery, which are related to but different than the Old World forms of slavery. But they are all slavery. Either you have control of your corpus or you do not.
  - shaklee3 5y ago
    You were vaccinated as a child and you're presumably perfectly fine. And it's not about you. It's about not being selfish to end a pandemic that affects other people a lot worse than it does you.
    - desine 5y ago
      We allow parents to make decisions for children up to a certain age. I'm definitely not arguing that. It is about me. A population is made up of individual people. Those individual people have rights. Given a choice of a population of X size who surrender the rights to govern their body, vs a population of free willed humans of (X - (00.03 * X)), I would gladly take the latter, including as a casualty. Humanity under authoritarianism is never morally acceptable, regardless of how benevolent my dictator appears to be.
      - nl 5y ago
        This is an argument against tyranny, but it isn't an argument against vaccination. From your comment: > Because if I put something in my body only because my master tells me to, I am a slave. So don't do it for that reason. Do it because it will save your (and other people's) life. That's an entirely reasonable position to take.
        desine 5y ago
        Sure, but it's not the only reasonable position to take.
        shaklee3 5y ago
        What are your concerns if you were to do it? Is it purely to take a stance?
        desine 5y ago
        Concern over long term effects of mRNA therapy, of which I've found little evidence Concern over long term effects of the spike protein presented by COVID-19, both attached to the virus and free-floating within my body as a result of mRNA therapy. Concern over long term ability for my cells to accurately recreate the spike protein. From what I've read, this is actually low concern on my scale, the capping seems pretty thorough. Concern over my body creating an immunoresponse to organs/nearby cells/systems where the spike protein has accumulated Concern over my immune system being able to form a strong defense in the future over different coronaviruses when it's been trained to work outside it's normal operational parameters. Concern over the hubris of mankind and the house of cards that is our trust in the peer review system. Concern over the lack of experiment replication done in the modern medical fields Concern over the fact that some of these companies have shady history, including knowingly selling me asbestos to keep my testicle dry during the summer heat. Concern over the lack of transparency in the bridges between pharma lobbyists and government, politicians and media, and media and pharma corps. Concern over the lack of transparency in more broader sense. Concern over the obvious astroturfing on social media, of multiple "influencers" posting the same copy and pasted messages, the bot responses, the general fiscal funding behind this debate. Concern over the future implications of us accepting, as a society, the weaponization of fear, and the saving graces of corporations. Concern over our willingness to change our lives in drastic manners because of the justification that it may save a life, which I see as an endless justification opportunity for future world leaders. Concern over turning fear into a virtue.
- canoebuilder 5y ago
  What? Vaccination absolutely is a medical procedure. How could you say otherwise? It's now clear that these injections do not have the efficacy of what has traditionally been termed a "vaccination," but they're definitely being marketed as a preventative, or therapeutic medical intervention. Weird comment this one...
  - shaklee3 5y ago
    Getting a shot is not a medical procedure and more than going to the dentist is. The efficacy is still much, much higher than not being vaccinated. I'm not sure I see what you're getting at.
- daddylongstroke 5y ago
  >I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post. The obvious good reason is you have one of the many pre-existing conditions that prevent you from getting the vaccine without causing yourself further risk of long term organ damage/failure caused by you previously taking other mandatory vaccines on a regular basis (healthcare workers, vasculitis is one such group of diseases common among the RN population - but what do they know, those front line workers with their anti-vaxx mumbo-jumbo). The other obvious reason is another simple one - it seems its completely unnecessary for any relatively "healthy" person such as myself to worry about this virus. Our immune systems are designed for this battle, and based on the death rates, it seems despite the US population being very obese and largely unhealthy with a fairly high diabetes rate, we're somehow not dying in droves. Third reason, vaccinations against every single little virus that comes along is effectively practicing negative selection. I think we all can assume where that leads especially with a leaky vaccine like this one - large scale true extinction event. We're breeding superbugs by vaccinating large scale populations, instead of small targeted vaccine administration.

shaklee3 5y ago

This isn't a medical procedure. You are certainly not allowed to make someone go through a medical procedure, since, you know, it doesn't affect you. Not being vaccinated affects everyone, so your choice of whether you get it or not is now going to have consequences on what you can do publicly. I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post.

desine 5y ago
>I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post. Because if I put something in my body only because my master tells me to, I am a slave. Through and through. Bodily autonomy is absolute. It's different than the Modern American definition of slavery, which is mostly based on the New World forms of slavery, which are related to but different than the Old World forms of slavery. But they are all slavery. Either you have control of your corpus or you do not.
- shaklee3 5y ago
  You were vaccinated as a child and you're presumably perfectly fine. And it's not about you. It's about not being selfish to end a pandemic that affects other people a lot worse than it does you.
  - desine 5y ago
    We allow parents to make decisions for children up to a certain age. I'm definitely not arguing that. It is about me. A population is made up of individual people. Those individual people have rights. Given a choice of a population of X size who surrender the rights to govern their body, vs a population of free willed humans of (X - (00.03 * X)), I would gladly take the latter, including as a casualty. Humanity under authoritarianism is never morally acceptable, regardless of how benevolent my dictator appears to be.
    - nl 5y ago
      This is an argument against tyranny, but it isn't an argument against vaccination. From your comment: > Because if I put something in my body only because my master tells me to, I am a slave. So don't do it for that reason. Do it because it will save your (and other people's) life. That's an entirely reasonable position to take.
      - desine 5y ago
        Sure, but it's not the only reasonable position to take.
        shaklee3 5y ago
        What are your concerns if you were to do it? Is it purely to take a stance?
        desine 5y ago
        Concern over long term effects of mRNA therapy, of which I've found little evidence Concern over long term effects of the spike protein presented by COVID-19, both attached to the virus and free-floating within my body as a result of mRNA therapy. Concern over long term ability for my cells to accurately recreate the spike protein. From what I've read, this is actually low concern on my scale, the capping seems pretty thorough. Concern over my body creating an immunoresponse to organs/nearby cells/systems where the spike protein has accumulated Concern over my immune system being able to form a strong defense in the future over different coronaviruses when it's been trained to work outside it's normal operational parameters. Concern over the hubris of mankind and the house of cards that is our trust in the peer review system. Concern over the lack of experiment replication done in the modern medical fields Concern over the fact that some of these companies have shady history, including knowingly selling me asbestos to keep my testicle dry during the summer heat. Concern over the lack of transparency in the bridges between pharma lobbyists and government, politicians and media, and media and pharma corps. Concern over the lack of transparency in more broader sense. Concern over the obvious astroturfing on social media, of multiple "influencers" posting the same copy and pasted messages, the bot responses, the general fiscal funding behind this debate. Concern over the future implications of us accepting, as a society, the weaponization of fear, and the saving graces of corporations. Concern over our willingness to change our lives in drastic manners because of the justification that it may save a life, which I see as an endless justification opportunity for future world leaders. Concern over turning fear into a virtue.
canoebuilder 5y ago
What? Vaccination absolutely is a medical procedure. How could you say otherwise? It's now clear that these injections do not have the efficacy of what has traditionally been termed a "vaccination," but they're definitely being marketed as a preventative, or therapeutic medical intervention. Weird comment this one...
- shaklee3 5y ago
  Getting a shot is not a medical procedure and more than going to the dentist is. The efficacy is still much, much higher than not being vaccinated. I'm not sure I see what you're getting at.
daddylongstroke 5y ago
>I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post. The obvious good reason is you have one of the many pre-existing conditions that prevent you from getting the vaccine without causing yourself further risk of long term organ damage/failure caused by you previously taking other mandatory vaccines on a regular basis (healthcare workers, vasculitis is one such group of diseases common among the RN population - but what do they know, those front line workers with their anti-vaxx mumbo-jumbo). The other obvious reason is another simple one - it seems its completely unnecessary for any relatively "healthy" person such as myself to worry about this virus. Our immune systems are designed for this battle, and based on the death rates, it seems despite the US population being very obese and largely unhealthy with a fairly high diabetes rate, we're somehow not dying in droves. Third reason, vaccinations against every single little virus that comes along is effectively practicing negative selection. I think we all can assume where that leads especially with a leaky vaccine like this one - large scale true extinction event. We're breeding superbugs by vaccinating large scale populations, instead of small targeted vaccine administration.