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Could you say more about these legal photos? That's a pretty big difference from what I thought was contained in the DB.
by wbl 5y ago
Could you say more about these legal photos? That's a pretty big difference from what I thought was contained in the DB.
- 0xy 5y agoIf there are pictures recovered alongside CSAM but are not CSAM themselves they can be included in the database. The thing I can publicly say is that the database is not strictly for illegal or even borderline imagery. NCMEC try to keep the contents, processes and access to the database under wraps for obvious reasons.
- oh_sigh 5y agoSo are we talking about images which are not actually CSAM but a reasonable person would consider to be CSAM if they encountered them? Or is it just the README.txt for whatever popular bittorrent client?
- 0xy 5y agoA reasonable person would call it a normal picture if they encountered it in isolation. Like I said, content which is not even borderline are included. By both a legal and moralistic standard they're not CSAM. Not even nearly. Of course, this is a minority of the content in the database. But even 1 such image is gross neglect of stated purpose in my book.
- azinman2 5y agoBut are these photos that are combined in a row with other CP, and thus indicative that if you have this photo, it’s from a CP collection? Why would I have any content in my phone that would be in that database?
- pseudalopex 5y agoIt's easy to imagine a collection with pictures from numerous sources. Including pictures of adults.
- 0xy 5y agoImagine things like: - A kitchen with nobody in frame. - A couch with nobody in frame. - Outdoor scenery with nobody in frame. - A bathroom with nobody in frame. Is it hard to believe you wouldn't download something like this without knowing where it came from? I'm not talking about borderline stuff. I'm talking about content that has not even a hint of pornography or illegality.
- oauea 5y agoSo why is it in there and why do they care?
- aethertron 5y agoMaybe cropped photos, or innocent frames from videos containing abuse? Not sure what GP is referring to.
- salawat 5y agoI am reminded of an infamous couch and pool that are notorious for appearing in many adult productions... Possibly stock footage of a production room or repeating prop intended for being subsampled for so that multiple or repeated works by the same person or group can be flagged. I recall a person of interest was arrested after of all things posting a completely benign YouTube tutorial video. My thought at the time was likely a prop match to the environment or some such within the video. The method is definitely doable. Partitioned out to every consumer device with unflinching acceptance? Yeahhhh. Remember, these databases are essentially signature DB's, and there is no guarantee that all hashes are just doing a naive match on the entire file, or that all scans performedare fundamentally the same. This is why I reject outright the legitimacy of any Client-based CSAM scanners. In a closed source environment, it's yet another blob, therefore an arbitrary code execution vector. I'm sorry, but in my calculus, I'm not willing to buy into that, even for CSAM. It won't stay just filesystems. It won't stay just hash matching. The fact there's so much secrecy around ways and means implies there's likely dynamicity in what they are looking for, and with the permissions and sensors on a phone that many apps already ask for, my not one inch instincts are sadly firmly engaged with no signs of letting up. I'm totally behind the fight. I'm not an idiot though, and I know what the road to hell is paved with. Law Enforcement and anti-CSAM agencies are cut a lot of slack, and enjoy a lot of unquestioning acceptance by the populace. In my book, this warrants more scrutiny, and caution not less. The rash of inconvenient people being rather frequently called out as having CSAM found on hard drives in media with no additional context indicates the CSAM definition is being wielded in a manner that produces a great degree of political convenience. Again, more scrutiny, not less.
- stevekemp 5y agoI would imagine it would include things like Nirvana's Nevermind album-cover, or a better example Scorpion's album cover for Virgin Killer.
- katbyte 5y agoTil - and both findable via a google imagine search