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> Stop. Using. Apple. But is there a realistically better alternative? Pinephone with a personally audited Linux distro? A jailbroken Android device with a non

> Stop. Using. Apple. But is there a realistically better alternative? Pinephone with a personally audited Linux distro? A jailbroken Android device with a non-stock firmware that you built yourself? A homebuilt RaspberryPi based device? A paper notepad and a film camera and an out of print street map?

echelon 5y ago
Not really, and I'm not going to sway anyone deeply into the ecosystem. My hope is that those of you that share my viewpoint will call your legislators and demand regulations or a break up. There are forces of good within the DOJ that are putting together an antitrust case against Apple, and the more of us that lend our voices, the louder and more compelling the argument. The DOJ is really the last lever we have, and that's pretty good measure for the power Apple wields.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Wouldn't you think Apple is doing something like this at the behest of DoJ?
- wmf 5y ago
  Other companies seem even less interested in fighting government surveillance so I don't see how weakening Apple will help anything.
- FractalHQ 5y ago
  Too bad Apple and the rest of big money already have our legislators in their pockets.
j-james 5y ago
An Android device running non-stock is a realistically better scenario. The big problem there is that the state of Android drivers means your hardware options are severely cut down (in practice, to a selection about the size of Apple's - the Pixel line and some assorted others).
- a-dub 5y ago
  do you still get patches via google play services?
  - saurik 5y ago
    With non-stock (assuming not jailbroken but just a totally different operating system) I think (I might be wrong... I should know for sure but I awkwardly don't) you aren't even allowed to use Google Play Services at all?
    - a-dub 5y ago
      back in the day it was not allowed, and then they allowed it somewhat begrudgingly. this was like 10y ago though. no idea what the situation is now, but i wouldn't consider a phone that doesn't get those patches (project mainline) on time to be a serious option.
    - gabi32 5y ago
      You are allowed to use Google services. There is even an alternative called microG which is compatible with apps requiring Google serivices but it sends "fake" data to Google.
kaba0 5y ago
The best bet is probably a pixel phone with GrapheneOS. (Do note, that copperhead os is a scam and is not to be used) Gnu/linux phones have nonexistent security, other than being niche (so security by obscurity at most). And also, they are not yet usable as a daily driver for me personally, at least.
- fsflover 5y ago
  "Nonexistent security" is not an accurate description. It's just a totally different approach to security. It's verifiability. https://puri.sm/posts/defending-against-spyware-like-pegasus/ https://puri.sm/posts/defending-against-spyware-like-pegasus... https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#43-how-secure-is-the-librem-5-compared-to-an-android-phone https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
  - kaba0 5y ago
    That’s not how security works. Whether or not I am allowed to check that my entrance has no locks whatsoever doesn’t make it harder to open it. And the reverse, even if I don’t know the details of the lock in my door, it will not let others pass through.
    - tpxl 5y ago
      > even if I don’t know the details of the lock in my door, it will not let others pass through. You absolutely can not make that assertion without being able to verify the lock.
      - kaba0 5y ago
        What if I have a locksmith verify it for me? Like Apple and Android have been checked by several security researchers and while they absolutely have holes, there is are at least gates that can have them. Sandboxing is the bare minimum an OS should do if it wants to have third party applications installed.
fsflover 5y ago
> Pinephone with a personally audited Linux distro? Even if you don't personally audit it, you still benefit from other people doing it. Especially if the software is reproducible (and many packages are).
marderfarker2 5y ago
Viable alternatives were long gone. I really miss the days of Symbian and Meego, phones that are hackable yet intuitive to use (I.e. Nokia N900, N9). Realistically now we have Tizen and Jolla OS, which had backings from Samsung but nobody gave two damn about it. I bet even if any of these vanilla mobile OS gets big enough they’ll get bought by the 3 giants and suffocated to death just like how Microsoft sniped Nokia.
- ornornor 5y ago
  Samsung is one of the companies I trust the least with regards to security, privacy, and overall competence in software.
  - marderfarker2 5y ago
    Why though? How are they worse than Google for example? Were there any recent examples where they failed in those?
    - bigiain 5y ago
      Not the parent commenter, but for me - Samsung are just as morally vacuous as Google, but are way less competent, at least on there software side (their component manufacture seems to be world class in at least some areas). They'll happily do evil shit, and execute it poorly. Samsung are _way_ more likely to leak the unnecessarily and possibly illegally collected personal data they hoover up than Google are.

echelon 5y ago

Not really, and I'm not going to sway anyone deeply into the ecosystem. My hope is that those of you that share my viewpoint will call your legislators and demand regulations or a break up. There are forces of good within the DOJ that are putting together an antitrust case against Apple, and the more of us that lend our voices, the louder and more compelling the argument. The DOJ is really the last lever we have, and that's pretty good measure for the power Apple wields.

dylan604 5y ago
Wouldn't you think Apple is doing something like this at the behest of DoJ?
wmf 5y ago
Other companies seem even less interested in fighting government surveillance so I don't see how weakening Apple will help anything.
FractalHQ 5y ago
Too bad Apple and the rest of big money already have our legislators in their pockets.

j-james 5y ago

An Android device running non-stock is a realistically better scenario. The big problem there is that the state of Android drivers means your hardware options are severely cut down (in practice, to a selection about the size of Apple's - the Pixel line and some assorted others).

a-dub 5y ago
do you still get patches via google play services?
- saurik 5y ago
  With non-stock (assuming not jailbroken but just a totally different operating system) I think (I might be wrong... I should know for sure but I awkwardly don't) you aren't even allowed to use Google Play Services at all?
  - a-dub 5y ago
    back in the day it was not allowed, and then they allowed it somewhat begrudgingly. this was like 10y ago though. no idea what the situation is now, but i wouldn't consider a phone that doesn't get those patches (project mainline) on time to be a serious option.
  - gabi32 5y ago
    You are allowed to use Google services. There is even an alternative called microG which is compatible with apps requiring Google serivices but it sends "fake" data to Google.

kaba0 5y ago

The best bet is probably a pixel phone with GrapheneOS. (Do note, that copperhead os is a scam and is not to be used) Gnu/linux phones have nonexistent security, other than being niche (so security by obscurity at most). And also, they are not yet usable as a daily driver for me personally, at least.

fsflover 5y ago
"Nonexistent security" is not an accurate description. It's just a totally different approach to security. It's verifiability. https://puri.sm/posts/defending-against-spyware-like-pegasus/ https://puri.sm/posts/defending-against-spyware-like-pegasus... https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#43-how-secure-is-the-librem-5-compared-to-an-android-phone https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
- kaba0 5y ago
  That’s not how security works. Whether or not I am allowed to check that my entrance has no locks whatsoever doesn’t make it harder to open it. And the reverse, even if I don’t know the details of the lock in my door, it will not let others pass through.
  - tpxl 5y ago
    > even if I don’t know the details of the lock in my door, it will not let others pass through. You absolutely can not make that assertion without being able to verify the lock.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      What if I have a locksmith verify it for me? Like Apple and Android have been checked by several security researchers and while they absolutely have holes, there is are at least gates that can have them. Sandboxing is the bare minimum an OS should do if it wants to have third party applications installed.

fsflover 5y ago

> Pinephone with a personally audited Linux distro? Even if you don't personally audit it, you still benefit from other people doing it. Especially if the software is reproducible (and many packages are).

marderfarker2 5y ago

Viable alternatives were long gone. I really miss the days of Symbian and Meego, phones that are hackable yet intuitive to use (I.e. Nokia N900, N9). Realistically now we have Tizen and Jolla OS, which had backings from Samsung but nobody gave two damn about it. I bet even if any of these vanilla mobile OS gets big enough they’ll get bought by the 3 giants and suffocated to death just like how Microsoft sniped Nokia.

ornornor 5y ago
Samsung is one of the companies I trust the least with regards to security, privacy, and overall competence in software.
- marderfarker2 5y ago
  Why though? How are they worse than Google for example? Were there any recent examples where they failed in those?
  - bigiain 5y ago
    Not the parent commenter, but for me - Samsung are just as morally vacuous as Google, but are way less competent, at least on there software side (their component manufacture seems to be world class in at least some areas). They'll happily do evil shit, and execute it poorly. Samsung are _way_ more likely to leak the unnecessarily and possibly illegally collected personal data they hoover up than Google are.