7 ms·

The democratic issue with Facebook and other SoMes remains as long as there isn’t a record of what people see on their walls. I’m Danish and our laws regarding

by moksly 5y ago

The democratic issue with Facebook and other SoMes remains as long as there isn’t a record of what people see on their walls. I’m Danish and our laws regarding advertising may seem a little totalitarian to Americans, but here you have to be rather public about your advertising and who it targets. You obviously can’t tell who exactly sees a poster on a public wall, but you can get a general picture of how advertising is utilised. The one place you can’t though is on SoMe because there is no record of your personal wall. Facebook at least makes overall spending public now, unlike LinkedIn and others, but no one can tell how the advertising that the money buys is targeted. This is an issue because hearing something enough times changes your perspective on reality. But more than that, we have to take the SoMes word for it when they say they aren’t targeting children with tobacco, sugar or toy commercials, which is illegal here. So it’s interesting that Facebook does these things to tools that might track what they won’t willingly provide.

cm2012 5y ago
All Facebook ads have a button that let's you see what advertising targeting the advertiser used to show you that ad.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- newacct583 5y ago
  This is true for "ads". I also get a flood of "suggested for you" links which seem indistinguishable, are almost certainly paid content, and have no such labeling. Some of this is benign enough, like all the inexplicable videos of rollercoaster rides or the Crafty Panda nonsense. Some of it seems somewhat nefarious, like the very family-friendly, feel-good, decidedly non-political suggestions for things like Cute Cat Content at the EXTREMELY political Epoch Times. I mean, come on. All systems can be gamed. Facebook will still, for a fee, put any content you want in front of any user you want in a completely untrackable way. And that's why they freaked out about this extension.
  - cm2012 5y ago
    On Facebook "suggested for you" is not paid, all paid stuff is clearly marked. That's just the algorithm guessing at what you'll enjoy.
    - newacct583 5y ago
      And it only guesses that I'll enjoy clearly commercial content and not any of the community stuff related to things I actually interact with? Really? That seems oddly suspicious. I gotta say, I don't believe you. I've never once seen a Suggested link that wasn't to some kind of obvious click farm. Never once. If you want to make a technical argument that Facebook drives revenue via other means than direct payments, then that seems reasonably likely (if deliberately misleading). If you want to argue that these folks aren't spending money that ends up in Facebook's pocket in order for Facebook to put their content in front of my eyeballs... then I'm just going to laugh at you, sorry. I mean, just on first principles your argument is ridiculous. If Facebook didn't see benefit from putting this garbage in front of me that I never click on, then why would it be putting garbage in front of me that I never click on? Clearly Facebook wants me to click on it!
      - 55555 5y ago
        You're wrong but don't seem willing to have your mind changed.
        newacct583 5y ago
        Change my mind then. Like every other sentence I wrote has a funny '?' symbol at the end. That's your cue to provide information.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        55555 5y ago
        Fine. But remember, you can still hate Facebook and it can still be a crappy platform even though you're wrong about the explicit claims you've been arguing. > And it only guesses that I'll enjoy clearly commercial content and not any of the community stuff related to things I actually interact with? Really? That seems oddly suspicious. Yeah, they're kinda "dumb." These companies have incredible engineers but they still screw up really simple things. > I gotta say, I don't believe you. I've never once seen a Suggested link that wasn't to some kind of obvious click farm. This is clickbait content created by professional view arbitrage firms who use natural virality to make a buck. They are making money, but they aren't buying ads, they're selling them on their own websites. > Never once. If you want to make a technical argument that Facebook drives revenue via other means than direct payments, then that seems reasonably likely (if deliberately misleading). This is exactly the argument. And it's not an argument, it's a fact, assuming you aren't just missing the "sponsored/ad" labels on Facebook.com. Facebook is promoting this crap because most people are likely to click it and they are optimizing for engagement so people come back and click more, including on ads. > If you want to argue that these folks aren't spending money that ends up in Facebook's pocket in order for Facebook to put their content in front of my eyeballs... then I'm just going to laugh at you, sorry. This is not what was said and nobody intelligent would say this. (Strawman argument) > If Facebook didn't see benefit from putting this garbage in front of me that I never click on, then why would it be putting garbage in front of me that I never click on? Clearly Facebook wants me to click on it! Their algorithm hasn't figured you out as well as it has others. They promote low quality clickbait content BECAUSE it leads to "engagement" and clicks. They want you to like being on Facebook, and constant clicking = addiction. But these are not ads, unless you're missing an obvious "sponsored/ads" label.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  It’s very very vague in practice.
  - strken 5y ago
    Is it? Why can't you show the configured audience for a given ad to the user who was matched to the audience?
    - ascorbic 5y ago
      Almost always it's just a custom audience or lookalike, with no way of knowing how that audience was assembled.
- Vinnl 5y ago
  Sounds like the difference is that only I can see how Facebook targeted me, rather than e.g. consumer interests organisations or government watchdogs being able to see how an organisation targets in general.
- moksly 5y ago
  Which is great, but what we need is campaign wise transparency. Facebook is actually ahead of its competition in that you can see things like advertising spending, as an example I can see how much each Danish political party spend on Facebook campaigns. Of course I could already do this by looking in their budgets, but it’s still more than other social media platforms. What we need, however, is it to be able to pull data from each campaign, see what democracies they target and how many times they appear on peoples wall. It doesn’t have to go into “moksly saw this 15 times” more in the range of “in the group of x, y individuals were shown this add z times at these hours” and so on. This would make it more akin to the advertisement data we have on almost all other mediums. I personally think we should require something similar from Google, but they manage to sneak below political and public notice enough for that to have widespread support.
TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
Pardon my ignorance, what does SoMe mean in this context?
- nicce 5y ago
  Social Media I believe
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    Obvious now, thanks.
- yann2 5y ago
  Social Medication I believe
aerosmile 5y ago
> I’m Danish and our laws regarding advertising may seem a little totalitarian to Americans Apparently not just Americans... There are around 10k Americans living in Denmark [1], and around 1.3M Danes living in the US [2]. While I am sure that everyone you talk to in Denmark will tell you they love it there, that's due to the survival bias. The immigration streams tell the true story, which is that the Danes are voting with their feet and overcoming incredible financial and cultural challenges to move their families to the US. With that in mind, no, I am not really keen on learning about all the wonderful hurdles your government has come up with to destroy every last bit of a chance that an entrepreneur has to advertise their business. Surely, the intentions were all good, but you know what they say about the path to hell... [1] https://www.thelocal.dk/20190402/where-do-denmark-based-americans-live-and-how-many-have-become-danish-citizens https://www.thelocal.dk/20190402/where-do-denmark-based-amer... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Americans
- simonjgreen 5y ago
  > Danish Americans (Danish: Dansk-amerikanere) are Americans who have ancestral roots originated fully or partially from Denmark. There are approximately 1,300,000 Americans of Danish origin or descent. And the history in the article goes back to the 1600s. I think you need to reassess your sources and position.
  - aerosmile 5y ago
    Agree on the sources but not on the position. Perhaps we should limit the immigration stats to the last 50 years or something, but no amount of hair splitting will reverse the overall point - which is that far more Danes immigrate to the US than vice versa, despite the fact that there are far more Americans than Danes. Btw, nothing against the Danes. There's no country in this world where the same is not true. You hear about the Swiss tax laws, or the German unions, or the Italian lifestyle, or the Swedish health care. And yet, all those people are playing the Green Card lottery (just like I did and everyone else I grew up with).
- moksly 5y ago

by moksly 5y ago

cm2012 5y ago

All Facebook ads have a button that let's you see what advertising targeting the advertiser used to show you that ad.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
newacct583 5y ago
This is true for "ads". I also get a flood of "suggested for you" links which seem indistinguishable, are almost certainly paid content, and have no such labeling. Some of this is benign enough, like all the inexplicable videos of rollercoaster rides or the Crafty Panda nonsense. Some of it seems somewhat nefarious, like the very family-friendly, feel-good, decidedly non-political suggestions for things like Cute Cat Content at the EXTREMELY political Epoch Times. I mean, come on. All systems can be gamed. Facebook will still, for a fee, put any content you want in front of any user you want in a completely untrackable way. And that's why they freaked out about this extension.
- cm2012 5y ago
  On Facebook "suggested for you" is not paid, all paid stuff is clearly marked. That's just the algorithm guessing at what you'll enjoy.
  - newacct583 5y ago
    And it only guesses that I'll enjoy clearly commercial content and not any of the community stuff related to things I actually interact with? Really? That seems oddly suspicious. I gotta say, I don't believe you. I've never once seen a Suggested link that wasn't to some kind of obvious click farm. Never once. If you want to make a technical argument that Facebook drives revenue via other means than direct payments, then that seems reasonably likely (if deliberately misleading). If you want to argue that these folks aren't spending money that ends up in Facebook's pocket in order for Facebook to put their content in front of my eyeballs... then I'm just going to laugh at you, sorry. I mean, just on first principles your argument is ridiculous. If Facebook didn't see benefit from putting this garbage in front of me that I never click on, then why would it be putting garbage in front of me that I never click on? Clearly Facebook wants me to click on it!
    - 55555 5y ago
      You're wrong but don't seem willing to have your mind changed.
      - newacct583 5y ago
        Change my mind then. Like every other sentence I wrote has a funny '?' symbol at the end. That's your cue to provide information.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        55555 5y ago
        Fine. But remember, you can still hate Facebook and it can still be a crappy platform even though you're wrong about the explicit claims you've been arguing. > And it only guesses that I'll enjoy clearly commercial content and not any of the community stuff related to things I actually interact with? Really? That seems oddly suspicious. Yeah, they're kinda "dumb." These companies have incredible engineers but they still screw up really simple things. > I gotta say, I don't believe you. I've never once seen a Suggested link that wasn't to some kind of obvious click farm. This is clickbait content created by professional view arbitrage firms who use natural virality to make a buck. They are making money, but they aren't buying ads, they're selling them on their own websites. > Never once. If you want to make a technical argument that Facebook drives revenue via other means than direct payments, then that seems reasonably likely (if deliberately misleading). This is exactly the argument. And it's not an argument, it's a fact, assuming you aren't just missing the "sponsored/ad" labels on Facebook.com. Facebook is promoting this crap because most people are likely to click it and they are optimizing for engagement so people come back and click more, including on ads. > If you want to argue that these folks aren't spending money that ends up in Facebook's pocket in order for Facebook to put their content in front of my eyeballs... then I'm just going to laugh at you, sorry. This is not what was said and nobody intelligent would say this. (Strawman argument) > If Facebook didn't see benefit from putting this garbage in front of me that I never click on, then why would it be putting garbage in front of me that I never click on? Clearly Facebook wants me to click on it! Their algorithm hasn't figured you out as well as it has others. They promote low quality clickbait content BECAUSE it leads to "engagement" and clicks. They want you to like being on Facebook, and constant clicking = addiction. But these are not ads, unless you're missing an obvious "sponsored/ads" label.
alasdair_ 5y ago
It’s very very vague in practice.
- strken 5y ago
  Is it? Why can't you show the configured audience for a given ad to the user who was matched to the audience?
  - ascorbic 5y ago
    Almost always it's just a custom audience or lookalike, with no way of knowing how that audience was assembled.
Vinnl 5y ago
Sounds like the difference is that only I can see how Facebook targeted me, rather than e.g. consumer interests organisations or government watchdogs being able to see how an organisation targets in general.
moksly 5y ago
Which is great, but what we need is campaign wise transparency. Facebook is actually ahead of its competition in that you can see things like advertising spending, as an example I can see how much each Danish political party spend on Facebook campaigns. Of course I could already do this by looking in their budgets, but it’s still more than other social media platforms. What we need, however, is it to be able to pull data from each campaign, see what democracies they target and how many times they appear on peoples wall. It doesn’t have to go into “moksly saw this 15 times” more in the range of “in the group of x, y individuals were shown this add z times at these hours” and so on. This would make it more akin to the advertisement data we have on almost all other mediums. I personally think we should require something similar from Google, but they manage to sneak below political and public notice enough for that to have widespread support.

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago

Pardon my ignorance, what does SoMe mean in this context?

nicce 5y ago
Social Media I believe
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  Obvious now, thanks.
yann2 5y ago
Social Medication I believe

aerosmile 5y ago

> I’m Danish and our laws regarding advertising may seem a little totalitarian to Americans Apparently not just Americans... There are around 10k Americans living in Denmark [1], and around 1.3M Danes living in the US [2]. While I am sure that everyone you talk to in Denmark will tell you they love it there, that's due to the survival bias. The immigration streams tell the true story, which is that the Danes are voting with their feet and overcoming incredible financial and cultural challenges to move their families to the US. With that in mind, no, I am not really keen on learning about all the wonderful hurdles your government has come up with to destroy every last bit of a chance that an entrepreneur has to advertise their business. Surely, the intentions were all good, but you know what they say about the path to hell... [1] https://www.thelocal.dk/20190402/where-do-denmark-based-americans-live-and-how-many-have-become-danish-citizens https://www.thelocal.dk/20190402/where-do-denmark-based-amer... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Americans

simonjgreen 5y ago
> Danish Americans (Danish: Dansk-amerikanere) are Americans who have ancestral roots originated fully or partially from Denmark. There are approximately 1,300,000 Americans of Danish origin or descent. And the history in the article goes back to the 1600s. I think you need to reassess your sources and position.
- aerosmile 5y ago
  Agree on the sources but not on the position. Perhaps we should limit the immigration stats to the last 50 years or something, but no amount of hair splitting will reverse the overall point - which is that far more Danes immigrate to the US than vice versa, despite the fact that there are far more Americans than Danes. Btw, nothing against the Danes. There's no country in this world where the same is not true. You hear about the Swiss tax laws, or the German unions, or the Italian lifestyle, or the Swedish health care. And yet, all those people are playing the Green Card lottery (just like I did and everyone else I grew up with).
moksly 5y ago