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I think it's interesting that these examples are considered [at least by some people] to be examples of sexism. Even though giving feedback on presentation ski

I think it's interesting that these examples are considered [at least by some people] to be examples of sexism. Even though giving feedback on presentation skills might literally be "tone policing", I'm not sure that it can be considered sexist. Men and women are both guilty of "uptalk", or using high rising terminals. IIRC it's more closely correlated with age and geography. But even if we say that it's correlated with gender I'm not sure that it's sexist to say it detracts from a presentation. It would be super jarring for me if Tim Cook walked out at a keynote and said "this is deadass the best iPhone we've ever made". Even though the word 'deadass' is associated with African-American Vernacular English, I don't think it's racist to say that using AAVE might distract from a presentation given to a wider audience. The second example also seems odd to me. If you're going to start a political discussion at work, I don't think you should be immune to hearing counterarguments. More generally, the whole concept of needing an email from your CEO for emotional support (on non-work related issues) seems really unhealthy to me. That seems like a way to create a toxic relationship between employer and worker-- your emotional well-being and ability to cope with politicians you despise should not depend on Tim Cook (maybe the culture is different at Apple?). The whole trend of a cookiecutter email for every bad thing that happens in the world seems like it could even emphasize certain divisions. How do you decide what deserves an email without "all lives mattering" a demographic? We see that on a smaller scale here on HN when people argue about what deaths are worthy of a black bar. You also have a VERY difficult tightrope to walk when two marginalized groups are being victimized by each other (e.g. recent violence in the Middle East, which also resulted in bigoted violence here in the US).

dragonwriter 5y ago
> I don't think it's racist to say that using AAVE might distract from a presentation given to a wider audience. If you actually say “using African-American Vernacular English” and not (say) “using incorrect grammar”, it’s arguably not racist to describe the expectation that way, though expectation itself is arguably racist depending on the specific circumstances of the presentation and other factors. Similarly, to the extent that rising terminal pitch is a feminine-gender-coded norm for declarative sentences, decribing the problem as rising terminal pitch is itself not sexist, describing it in terms of masculine-coded norms of expression is arguably sexist, and independt of how the deviation from expectation is expressed, an expectation of conforming to masculine-coded expression norms itself may be sexist.
- wahern 5y ago
  > Similarly, to the extent that rising terminal pitch is a feminine-gender-coded norm for declarative sentences, decribing the problem as rising terminal pitch is itself not sexist, describing it in terms of masculine-coded norms of expression is arguably sexist, and independt of how the deviation from expectation is expressed, an expectation of conforming to masculine-coded expression norms itself may be sexist. The dilemma here is that authoritativeness is considered a masculine trait in our shared cultural ontology, even (at least traditionally) in feminist philosophy. Arguably this may be more true today than in prior generations, given the trend among more developed nations for gender roles to sometimes bifurcate even more strongly than before along some dimensions, an unexpected consequence of women being more free to shape feminine gender identity. (It's often a group dynamic, not necessarily something individuals are doing deliberately.)
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    There's also a whole host of issues regarding cultural competency and the target audience, especially if the target audience themselves are employees, which may have different implications with an exclusively male, exclusively female, or mixed audience, and different again if its an audience of subordinates, higher-level managers, or a mixed audience.
alisonkisk 5y ago
Steve Jobs said silliness like "insanely great". Why is "deadass" bad, except that Black people say it more than White people? I bet Elon Musk says "deadass" nor similar.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  He might, but I think if you ranked CEOs by the ratio of presentation skills to market cap, Elon Musk would be one of the worst ones out there. He definitely has room for improvement- some of the TSLA shareholder meetings are borderline painful. Notwithstanding the cultural appropriation aspect[1], I think you can make an argument that Elon should say things like 'deadass' or 'litty-titty' because it's part of the irreverent personality that he tries to project. But I think it would be a huge stretch to say that suggesting he avoids those terms is racist. [1]: Elon Musk is technically African-American, but obviously doesn't have the same cultural background as people whose ancestors were brought here in chains

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I don't think it's racist to say that using AAVE might distract from a presentation given to a wider audience. If you actually say “using African-American Vernacular English” and not (say) “using incorrect grammar”, it’s arguably not racist to describe the expectation that way, though expectation itself is arguably racist depending on the specific circumstances of the presentation and other factors. Similarly, to the extent that rising terminal pitch is a feminine-gender-coded norm for declarative sentences, decribing the problem as rising terminal pitch is itself not sexist, describing it in terms of masculine-coded norms of expression is arguably sexist, and independt of how the deviation from expectation is expressed, an expectation of conforming to masculine-coded expression norms itself may be sexist.

wahern 5y ago
> Similarly, to the extent that rising terminal pitch is a feminine-gender-coded norm for declarative sentences, decribing the problem as rising terminal pitch is itself not sexist, describing it in terms of masculine-coded norms of expression is arguably sexist, and independt of how the deviation from expectation is expressed, an expectation of conforming to masculine-coded expression norms itself may be sexist. The dilemma here is that authoritativeness is considered a masculine trait in our shared cultural ontology, even (at least traditionally) in feminist philosophy. Arguably this may be more true today than in prior generations, given the trend among more developed nations for gender roles to sometimes bifurcate even more strongly than before along some dimensions, an unexpected consequence of women being more free to shape feminine gender identity. (It's often a group dynamic, not necessarily something individuals are doing deliberately.)
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  There's also a whole host of issues regarding cultural competency and the target audience, especially if the target audience themselves are employees, which may have different implications with an exclusively male, exclusively female, or mixed audience, and different again if its an audience of subordinates, higher-level managers, or a mixed audience.

alisonkisk 5y ago

Steve Jobs said silliness like "insanely great". Why is "deadass" bad, except that Black people say it more than White people? I bet Elon Musk says "deadass" nor similar.

Rebelgecko 5y ago
He might, but I think if you ranked CEOs by the ratio of presentation skills to market cap, Elon Musk would be one of the worst ones out there. He definitely has room for improvement- some of the TSLA shareholder meetings are borderline painful. Notwithstanding the cultural appropriation aspect[1], I think you can make an argument that Elon should say things like 'deadass' or 'litty-titty' because it's part of the irreverent personality that he tries to project. But I think it would be a huge stretch to say that suggesting he avoids those terms is racist. [1]: Elon Musk is technically African-American, but obviously doesn't have the same cultural background as people whose ancestors were brought here in chains