I never said that you can't make good code in PHP. > perhaps you’re just wrong about what’s good design? It does not follow from people making good code in PH

I never said that you can't make good code in PHP. > perhaps you’re just wrong about what’s good design? It does not follow from people making good code in PHP that PHP itself is good (or that it couldn't better than it is), just like it does not follow from people making bad code in any language X that language X is bad. So that would be a "no" on that front. > implying that Lisp is so much better than what the unwashed masses use is not persuasive I think you completely missed my point. It's not supposed to be "persuasive". It's the basis for my own personal decisions. I don't need to "persuade" myself. Some people may make this a basis for their own decisions, but whether they do that or not is their business, not mine. In fact I wouldn't have even mentioned my opinion of Clojure had you not pushed Clojure on me, so there's that. If you don't like that I prefer Clojure over CL, simply don't bring it up the next time.