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High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. How is this not understood? Vaccines s

by _red 5y ago

High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. How is this not understood? Vaccines should only be used for targeted at-risk population. Everyone else should strive for natural immunity.

starlust2 5y ago
The same selection pressure exists for "natural" immunity.
- _red 5y ago
  Not exactly. Natural immunity is more durable and more complete. Vaccines are often "leaky", offering only partial protection against very specific markers. Whereas NI is more comprehensive and long-lasting. "Leaky vaccines" result in catastrophic situations like Marek's disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    Good thing the mRNA vaccines are at least 90% effective at preventing infection from happening at all from the newer variants.
    - _red 5y ago
      >newer variants Against the original Alpha perhaps. However Delta effectiveness is nowhere near 90%...this is precisely the reason for the push for boosters.
      - ch4s3 5y ago
        Excuse me, the correct number seems to be 88%[1] effective against symptomatic COVID from the delta variant after 2 doses vs 95% for the alpha variant. [1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 [edit] I'm sure with more data that number might change up or down a little, but it seems in line with other findings.
      - _ph_ 5y ago
        No, the current boosters are the same vaccine as the original vaccinations. The booster shots are given as the antibody count in your blood drops over time and the booster shot keeps them at the maximum for another half year or so. We don't have precise data about the required level of antibodies to stay healthy yet and in quite a few countries the infection rates are currently high enough to pose a real risk for vaccinated patients in the vulnerable group. The safe play is to give booster shots to keep the immune response at its best.
amznthrwaway 5y ago
Your claims are false. You are confident, arrogant, ignorant, and wrong.
bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
How does a vaccine exert any higher a selective pressure than the natural immunity that comes from getting covid?
Uberphallus 5y ago
> High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. > How is this not understood? The same way vaccines create selection pressure, so does natural immunity. Letting people get infected instead of vaccinating them actually makes the dice roll much more, as in orders of magnitude more. Just look how most of the variants of concern, and mainly delta, appeared before any significant vaccine rollout, and further, delta shows high rates of reinfection vs. infection of vaccinated people. Only vaccinating those at-risk will keep this going and going for God knows how long, and regularly overcrowding hospitals with very corageous freedom fighters. Just get your shot instead of playing armchair epidemiologist.
- _red 5y ago
  >Just get your shot instead of playing armchair epidemiologist. I've already had covid in 2020 and recently had another antibody test which still showed a strong response...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Uberphallus 5y ago
    Antibodies are useless if they don't have the ability to bind to mutated proteins. > Some monoclonal antibodies, including bamlanivimab, lost their ability to bind to the spike protein and no longer neutralized the Delta variant. We also showed that the Delta variant is less sensitive to sera from naturally immunized individuals. > In individuals who had not previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2, a single dose of either the Pfizer or the AstraZeneca vaccine induced a barely detectable level of neutralizing antibodies against the Delta variant. About 10% of the sera neutralized this variant. However, a two-dose regimen generated high sero-neutralization levels against the Alpha, Beta and Delta variants in individuals sampled at week 8 to week 16 after vaccination. [0] Leave the armchair, get your booster shot. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9
    - 5y ago
RHSeeger 5y ago
A high vaccination rate prevents the spread of the disease. Yes, if you have a consistent rate of spread, then the more people with the vaccine, the more likely mutation is to survive. However, if the virus can't spread in the first place, it's chance to mutate is near zero.

by _red 5y ago

starlust2 5y ago

The same selection pressure exists for "natural" immunity.

_red 5y ago
Not exactly. Natural immunity is more durable and more complete. Vaccines are often "leaky", offering only partial protection against very specific markers. Whereas NI is more comprehensive and long-lasting. "Leaky vaccines" result in catastrophic situations like Marek's disease. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease
- ch4s3 5y ago
  Good thing the mRNA vaccines are at least 90% effective at preventing infection from happening at all from the newer variants.
  - _red 5y ago
    >newer variants Against the original Alpha perhaps. However Delta effectiveness is nowhere near 90%...this is precisely the reason for the push for boosters.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      Excuse me, the correct number seems to be 88%[1] effective against symptomatic COVID from the delta variant after 2 doses vs 95% for the alpha variant. [1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 [edit] I'm sure with more data that number might change up or down a little, but it seems in line with other findings.
    - _ph_ 5y ago
      No, the current boosters are the same vaccine as the original vaccinations. The booster shots are given as the antibody count in your blood drops over time and the booster shot keeps them at the maximum for another half year or so. We don't have precise data about the required level of antibodies to stay healthy yet and in quite a few countries the infection rates are currently high enough to pose a real risk for vaccinated patients in the vulnerable group. The safe play is to give booster shots to keep the immune response at its best.

amznthrwaway 5y ago

Your claims are false. You are confident, arrogant, ignorant, and wrong.

bobbylarrybobby 5y ago

How does a vaccine exert any higher a selective pressure than the natural immunity that comes from getting covid?

Uberphallus 5y ago

> High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. > How is this not understood? The same way vaccines create selection pressure, so does natural immunity. Letting people get infected instead of vaccinating them actually makes the dice roll much more, as in orders of magnitude more. Just look how most of the variants of concern, and mainly delta, appeared before any significant vaccine rollout, and further, delta shows high rates of reinfection vs. infection of vaccinated people. Only vaccinating those at-risk will keep this going and going for God knows how long, and regularly overcrowding hospitals with very corageous freedom fighters. Just get your shot instead of playing armchair epidemiologist.

_red 5y ago
>Just get your shot instead of playing armchair epidemiologist. I've already had covid in 2020 and recently had another antibody test which still showed a strong response...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Uberphallus 5y ago
  Antibodies are useless if they don't have the ability to bind to mutated proteins. > Some monoclonal antibodies, including bamlanivimab, lost their ability to bind to the spike protein and no longer neutralized the Delta variant. We also showed that the Delta variant is less sensitive to sera from naturally immunized individuals. > In individuals who had not previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2, a single dose of either the Pfizer or the AstraZeneca vaccine induced a barely detectable level of neutralizing antibodies against the Delta variant. About 10% of the sera neutralized this variant. However, a two-dose regimen generated high sero-neutralization levels against the Alpha, Beta and Delta variants in individuals sampled at week 8 to week 16 after vaccination. [0] Leave the armchair, get your booster shot. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9
  - 5y ago

RHSeeger 5y ago

A high vaccination rate prevents the spread of the disease. Yes, if you have a consistent rate of spread, then the more people with the vaccine, the more likely mutation is to survive. However, if the virus can't spread in the first place, it's chance to mutate is near zero.