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What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Unvaccinated people know the risks and they've

What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Unvaccinated people know the risks and they've had plenty of time to be vaccinated. It's not illegal to decide to do $XYZ_DANGEROUS_ACTIVITY, why should it be illegal to be exposed to covid? The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. Is there any evidence for that though? EDIT: see responses below, there is some good info, thanks folks.

omegaworks 5y ago
> What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Uncontrolled spread in the unvaccinated puts others that can not produce an immune response at risk. >Vaccinated people aren't at risk. This is false, fully vaccinated people in my network have been hospitalized. >Is there any evidence for that though? Reproduction and mutation in the infected is the primary mechanism by which variants develop.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
> The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. Is there any evidence for that though? Considering that also vacinated people get covid, this doesn't help at all, and since they're mostly asymptomatic, they can even spread it more. Otherwise, I agree... vaccines are available for everyone, if you want to risk it, it's your risk to take.
bombela 5y ago
If you are immunocompromised. Even though vaccinated. You could still catch the virus and be seriously impacted by it for example. The vaccine is not a guaranteed 100% protection for a healthy young person. And the weaker you are, the worse are the odds. And then you have the possiblity of mutations. The longueur the virus is on circulation. The more likely it is to mutate with worse outcome.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  But if you're immunocompromised, you're fscked anyways, and should stay at home, because a lot of vaccinated people (~30+% with astrazeneca) can still get it, and even stay asymptomatic (so they spread it, but don't even know it, and noone tests them, because they're vaccinated).
- Miner49er 5y ago
  > And then you have the possiblity of mutations. The longueur the virus is on circulation. The more likely it is to mutate with worse outcome. Yeah, but mutations are most likely gonna come from the billions that are unvaccinated outside the US. If this is the main concern, we should be doing all we can to make sure people in other countries (many of whom are very willing to take the vaccine) are getting the vaccine.
belltaco 5y ago
If the hospitals and emergency centers are full with covid patients, and you have a non-covid emergency, you're fucked. Imagine trying to get to the hospital and facing lines like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kbNGR7XjrY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kbNGR7XjrY The government or the insurance providers are paying for covid care, so it's coming out of your tax money or increasing health insurance premiums for everyone. You're taking doctors and nurses for granted. Health care providers are burning out faster due to long shifts caused by an overload of covid patients and are quitting. This increases health care costs for everyone and reduces availability. People having long term health issues decreases productivity, a lot more people might be disabled and file for disability benefits which come out of taxes. People's quality of life is reduced when their friends and family die. Lowering population reduces economic opportunity for everyone.
mrtksn 5y ago
> What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Plenty of risks. 1) You are giving a chance for spreading a vaccine resistant strain. Every time a vaccinated person is exposed to the virus, most likely the immune system would take care of it however there’s a risk that it would contain a vaccine resistant mutation and will spread among vaccinated, creating a vaccine resistant strain. 2) Vaccine protection is not %100, which means people are still at risk, therefore cannot ease measures 3) R0 would be lower in vaccinated groups, meaning a slower spread or complete end of the spread. In mixed groups R0 would be higher which means prolonged or never ending spread.
- srcreigh 5y ago
  Re 1) and 2), is there evidence that there are less covid mutations amongst vaccinated populations? I'm no epidemiologist, but maybe covid would achieve vaccine resistance better in a vaccinated population right? Regarding 3), Bill Gates wrote that ~70% immunity is all that's needed to eliminate covid. I'm curious for better info regarding that number too. It would imply that as many as 30% of people can remain unvaccinated and covid will still die out.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    It’s not about more or less mutations but about how evolution works. Indeed, vaccinated people are creating a selection pressure, therefore vaccine resistant strain would most likely come from vaccinated people being exposed to a virus that has the right mutation to evade the vaccinated immune system. The herd immunity percentage would depend on the characteristics of the strain. It can be higher or lower, the idea is that you need to have enough immune people so that the spread flames out. I read that for the delta variant the calculations show higher numbers because it’s more capable of spreading than the original one. Ideally, we will reach that point before a strain undermines our vaccination efforts however that is not guaranteed. We can take measures to increase our chances.
cyberpsybin 5y ago
Mutations. More dangerous variants. Delta variant came from India where disease ran rampant few months ago.
- Miner49er 5y ago
  Yeah, and mutations are most likely going to continue coming from the billions outside the US that are unvaccinated. We'd be much better off spending time getting people outside the US that want to be vaccinated vaccinated then worrying about the holdouts here.
  - rcpt 5y ago
    A mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people together is the perfect environment for a vaccine resistant strain to evolve.
    - Miner49er 5y ago
      I hadn't thought of that. Is there evidence for this or is it just a guess? It does make sense, but I wonder if it is backed up by data.
softwaredoug 5y ago
1. Many people aren’t or can’t get vaccinated, including kids under 12 or the immuno-compromised. 2. Constant infection causes more mutation of the virus and possible escape vaccine capture. 3. Infections overwhelm public health systems causing issues for people with non Covid health emergencies 4. While it’s very unlikely, you still increase the number of vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid
gopalv 5y ago
> What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Yet > The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. Is there any evidence for that though? Every human with covid is a variant factory. Even the vaccinated are. And every variant is a new fire which could burst out again - there was a comment that "Everytime we open up, there's a new variant", as if the variant spike was somehow unrelated to the opening up. This isn't theory. We should somewhat be thankful that vaccines work with Delta, because if the variant on the uptick was the Gamma variant, the acquired immunity wasn't as effective at preventing a severe disease [1]. If the virus isn't eradicated, then it will keep making comebacks as newly infected people provide more opportunities for more "successful" variants. Also kids, don't forget kids. Some of them are babies. [1] - https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article
tootie 5y ago
I see this opinion a lot and I think we can title LTFD or Let Them F** Die. Aside from the practical concerns about hospital crowding and the spread of potential breakthrough cases, I think it's also shamefully sadistic and punitive. I strongly disagree with anyone who is hesitant about getting vaccinated, but I still feel obligated to protect them as human beings and not just abandon their safety even if they don't want to protect themselves.
- atomashpolskiy 5y ago
  > I strongly disagree with anyone who is hesitant about getting vaccinated, but I still feel obligated to protect them as human beings and not just abandon their safety even if they don't want to protect themselves. > I still feel obligated to protect them Seems like all troubled folks are loose now with this crap. How about getting yourself a pet?

omegaworks 5y ago

> What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Uncontrolled spread in the unvaccinated puts others that can not produce an immune response at risk. >Vaccinated people aren't at risk. This is false, fully vaccinated people in my network have been hospitalized. >Is there any evidence for that though? Reproduction and mutation in the infected is the primary mechanism by which variants develop.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

> The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. Is there any evidence for that though? Considering that also vacinated people get covid, this doesn't help at all, and since they're mostly asymptomatic, they can even spread it more. Otherwise, I agree... vaccines are available for everyone, if you want to risk it, it's your risk to take.

bombela 5y ago

If you are immunocompromised. Even though vaccinated. You could still catch the virus and be seriously impacted by it for example. The vaccine is not a guaranteed 100% protection for a healthy young person. And the weaker you are, the worse are the odds. And then you have the possiblity of mutations. The longueur the virus is on circulation. The more likely it is to mutate with worse outcome.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago
But if you're immunocompromised, you're fscked anyways, and should stay at home, because a lot of vaccinated people (~30+% with astrazeneca) can still get it, and even stay asymptomatic (so they spread it, but don't even know it, and noone tests them, because they're vaccinated).
Miner49er 5y ago
> And then you have the possiblity of mutations. The longueur the virus is on circulation. The more likely it is to mutate with worse outcome. Yeah, but mutations are most likely gonna come from the billions that are unvaccinated outside the US. If this is the main concern, we should be doing all we can to make sure people in other countries (many of whom are very willing to take the vaccine) are getting the vaccine.

belltaco 5y ago

If the hospitals and emergency centers are full with covid patients, and you have a non-covid emergency, you're fucked. Imagine trying to get to the hospital and facing lines like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kbNGR7XjrY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kbNGR7XjrY The government or the insurance providers are paying for covid care, so it's coming out of your tax money or increasing health insurance premiums for everyone. You're taking doctors and nurses for granted. Health care providers are burning out faster due to long shifts caused by an overload of covid patients and are quitting. This increases health care costs for everyone and reduces availability. People having long term health issues decreases productivity, a lot more people might be disabled and file for disability benefits which come out of taxes. People's quality of life is reduced when their friends and family die. Lowering population reduces economic opportunity for everyone.

mrtksn 5y ago

> What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Plenty of risks. 1) You are giving a chance for spreading a vaccine resistant strain. Every time a vaccinated person is exposed to the virus, most likely the immune system would take care of it however there’s a risk that it would contain a vaccine resistant mutation and will spread among vaccinated, creating a vaccine resistant strain. 2) Vaccine protection is not %100, which means people are still at risk, therefore cannot ease measures 3) R0 would be lower in vaccinated groups, meaning a slower spread or complete end of the spread. In mixed groups R0 would be higher which means prolonged or never ending spread.

srcreigh 5y ago
Re 1) and 2), is there evidence that there are less covid mutations amongst vaccinated populations? I'm no epidemiologist, but maybe covid would achieve vaccine resistance better in a vaccinated population right? Regarding 3), Bill Gates wrote that ~70% immunity is all that's needed to eliminate covid. I'm curious for better info regarding that number too. It would imply that as many as 30% of people can remain unvaccinated and covid will still die out.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  It’s not about more or less mutations but about how evolution works. Indeed, vaccinated people are creating a selection pressure, therefore vaccine resistant strain would most likely come from vaccinated people being exposed to a virus that has the right mutation to evade the vaccinated immune system. The herd immunity percentage would depend on the characteristics of the strain. It can be higher or lower, the idea is that you need to have enough immune people so that the spread flames out. I read that for the delta variant the calculations show higher numbers because it’s more capable of spreading than the original one. Ideally, we will reach that point before a strain undermines our vaccination efforts however that is not guaranteed. We can take measures to increase our chances.

cyberpsybin 5y ago

Mutations. More dangerous variants. Delta variant came from India where disease ran rampant few months ago.

Miner49er 5y ago
Yeah, and mutations are most likely going to continue coming from the billions outside the US that are unvaccinated. We'd be much better off spending time getting people outside the US that want to be vaccinated vaccinated then worrying about the holdouts here.
- rcpt 5y ago
  A mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people together is the perfect environment for a vaccine resistant strain to evolve.
  - Miner49er 5y ago
    I hadn't thought of that. Is there evidence for this or is it just a guess? It does make sense, but I wonder if it is backed up by data.

softwaredoug 5y ago

1. Many people aren’t or can’t get vaccinated, including kids under 12 or the immuno-compromised. 2. Constant infection causes more mutation of the virus and possible escape vaccine capture. 3. Infections overwhelm public health systems causing issues for people with non Covid health emergencies 4. While it’s very unlikely, you still increase the number of vaccinated people hospitalized for Covid

gopalv 5y ago

> What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Yet > The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. Is there any evidence for that though? Every human with covid is a variant factory. Even the vaccinated are. And every variant is a new fire which could burst out again - there was a comment that "Everytime we open up, there's a new variant", as if the variant spike was somehow unrelated to the opening up. This isn't theory. We should somewhat be thankful that vaccines work with Delta, because if the variant on the uptick was the Gamma variant, the acquired immunity wasn't as effective at preventing a severe disease [1]. If the virus isn't eradicated, then it will keep making comebacks as newly infected people provide more opportunities for more "successful" variants. Also kids, don't forget kids. Some of them are babies. [1] - https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article

tootie 5y ago

I see this opinion a lot and I think we can title LTFD or Let Them F** Die. Aside from the practical concerns about hospital crowding and the spread of potential breakthrough cases, I think it's also shamefully sadistic and punitive. I strongly disagree with anyone who is hesitant about getting vaccinated, but I still feel obligated to protect them as human beings and not just abandon their safety even if they don't want to protect themselves.

atomashpolskiy 5y ago
> I strongly disagree with anyone who is hesitant about getting vaccinated, but I still feel obligated to protect them as human beings and not just abandon their safety even if they don't want to protect themselves. > I still feel obligated to protect them Seems like all troubled folks are loose now with this crap. How about getting yourself a pet?