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I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

67 points by mcguire 5y ago

RyJones 5y ago
I can. I got my shots as soon as I could, but I know lots of people that will never do it. Yesterday I was eating at a ramen shop - traffic was slow, so I got to listen to the bulletproof young man waiting tables talk to his friend at length about how he'd never get the shot, just like the flu, I'm not an anti-vaxxer - but, I don't wear tinfoil hats - but. The list of reasons not to do it was long and apparently convincing enough to them.
- bserge 5y ago
  A relative of mine is buying into the vaccine conspiracies along with shitting on depression and other mental problems, and honestly, I wish they'd get a serious case of Covid or something. These people don't learn until someone they know actually fucking dies.
  - a3n 5y ago
    It's the "but I'm here to tell you folks, it's real" story. Some people just don't give a shit if it doesn't affect them personally.
  - flycaliguy 5y ago
    This anti-vax nonsense has really tested my ability to not wish suffering on others. I’ve climbed that hill and found the empathy for these people, but it took actual mental effort.
  - Inate_Hikkers 5y ago
    I'm not conspiratorial but I am "vaccine hesitant" as they call it here in the US. For instance, if I theoretically got bitten by a rabid dog and I didn't want to die I would take the rabies vax. I personally disapprove of the COVID vaccine since it is very unusual for vaccines to be made in two days...and evidence regarding long-term side effects is scarce. However if taking the Covid vaccine meant I would get $10k in cash, then of course I would take it. https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-designed-coronavirus-vaccine-in-2-days-2020-11?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-designed-coronavirus... If you haven't seen my earlier comment I am the guy that DM'd you on reddit, I noticed your account was suspended and reverse searched the username.
    - bserge 5y ago
      Yeah, I am more pissed at the dismissal of metal health. Don't care much about Covid, had it, it was weak. I'd take the vaccine just to regain the freedoms. Then again I'd take anything lol, some shit I tried really sent me down some weird holes. And I would welcome death, so meh. Oh that guy, hey! I came home and my account is banned heh. Fantastic.
      - Inate_Hikkers 5y ago
        Instead of trying to tackle crime, drug use, depression, etc. at a surface level, the government should take a step back and try to look at WHY we are slaves to instant dopamine.
- ksec 5y ago
  OK, so what were those reasons?
  - RyJones 5y ago
    The most convincing one was a version of "what if in 20 years they're running those ads like they did for mesothelioma?"
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > The most convincing one was a version of "what if in 20 years they're running those ads like they did for mesothelioma?" That argument is equally valid against doing almost anything, not just getting the vaccine.
      - RyJones 5y ago
        I didn’t say I was convinced; it’s the argument they returned to, tho.
- tobr 5y ago
  I have a hunch there’s quite a few people who just don’t like needles, and are happy there are so many creative excuses to avoid getting the shot.
  - codyswann 5y ago
    I was asking the same thing the other day. No way to prove it, but I would say it's probably 25%. Before this all started, I knew quite a few people who were just terrified of needles. Now, it's not that they're terrified, it's just [insert BS reason]
  - fmorel 5y ago
    I'm prone to fainting when needles are involved, and I fainted at the pharmacy after my first shot. I still got my second one later. It's worth it.
  - williamstein 5y ago
    You're right. Needle phobia is an officially recognized phobia, and there's a Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_needles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_needles) about it, with estimates from 10% to well over 20% of the US adult population being needle phobic. (I'm vaccinated and not needle phobic.)
  - scamper 5y ago
    It me. I put off the needle for a long time—in fact my last shot was in 1991. Until last month. And hopefully that will be my last needle, since so many more humane methods of delivery are just around the corner.
  - squarefoot 5y ago
    Possibly, but they wouldn't make a noticeable number. The antivaxxers crowd is bigger and more motivated by the same nonsense. I wonder why they, including the same people who hate injections, never complained about mandatory vaccines for their kids, a practice that went on for decades in many countries? For example, most European countries had and still have 10 or more obligatory vaccinations for diseases that were finally defeated thanks to the practice, yet I have to meet one parent who refuses to let their kids receive it. I have good memory, and don't recall of anyone screaming when I was taking the anti-smallpox shot as a kid; it's just the same bullshit planted in their heads through social media. The covid vaccine is newer, therefore not tested enough? Bullshit! Every vaccine has been "young" at some time. There are no records of people protesting back then about treatments against diphteria, meningitis, polyo and others. There may be some side effects? Again a pile of bullshit. Lots of medicines can have side effects but people don't protest in the streets about that. Years back I took too many painkillers for my back pains, unfortunately they attacked my guts bacterial flora so I got an intestinal blockage while experiencing a sudden drop in blood red cells. I spent weeks taking tests and restoratives before it was clear I didn't have leukemia, which is present in my family and is what my father died of. No, it's not fear of the needle, it's pure and simple politicized misinformation through social media and other sources. Those idiots follow what their leaders say without turning on the brain; no critical thinking, or any consideration for the evidence: they're the perfect army any corrupt politician would love to herd.
- chrismcb 5y ago
  I'm curious, if you are young, what are the reasons to get vaccinated?
  - iceyyou 5y ago
    to prevent the spread of disease
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      It seems like these vaccines don't actually do that, though. At least not when it comes to the Delta variant.
      - CarelessExpert 5y ago
        Not even remotely true. Vaccines reduce ones chance of acquiring a Delta infection by a significant margin (not as high as previous variants but still significant). Even if you assume just 50% effectiveness in preventing disease (which is very conservative), that dramatically lowers the R-value and slows spread.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        > Vaccines clearly reduce ones chance of acquiring a COVID infection by a significant margin. All of that data is pre-Delta. The best thing you can say about the vaccines today is that they tend to reduce the overall severity/prevent people from dying.
        CarelessExpert 5y ago
        You really need to stop spreading falsehoods, you're not helping: https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/vaccines-remain-largely-effective-against-delta-variant-counter-to-claims-from-fox-news-guest/ https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/vaccines-remain-largely-ef... The absolute lowest bound estimate was an Israeli study: > In late July, the ministry further reduced its vaccine effectiveness estimate for symptomatic COVID-19 to 40.5% However, they have failed to provide the data necessary to evaluate their results, and so at this time there's pretty wide skepticism regarding this figure. In contrast: > A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine on July 21 by Public Health England, for example, found that after the two recommended doses, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in preventing symptomatic disease in the U.K. fell only slightly, to 88.0% against delta Being a betting man, I'd say the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but even at 60-70% effectiveness in preventing symptomatic Delta infection, vaccination leads to a significant reduction in R-value.
- senectus1 5y ago
  we had a 20yr old, unvaccinated die suddenly from covid just yesterday :-( No co-morb and otherwise very fit and healthy. How long until people LEARN.
bogota 5y ago
Hard to read this it’s just way too editorialized by the author. We get it you’re mad about the pandemic and how it’s handled. Supposedly being a doctor gives you more credibility but only on vaccinations not on public health policy. Anyway im sick of reading articles with no other point than to make you mad. But its HP what can you expect. Edit: not really going to argue with anyone my point stands. Just another stupid piece made to make people mad. Your comments further reinforce this. Be mad but it doesn’t help.
- ghthor 5y ago
  IMO Most of the "unvaccinated" are that way because they've already had covid and would rather be part of the control group for this large experiment. I just don't buy articles like this for the reason you stated.
  - cblackthornekc 5y ago
    You would be the first person that I've heard say hey I already got it, therefore I'm not getting vaccinated. Even if you've gotten covid, go get vaccinated
    - xdennis 5y ago
      > You would be the first person that I've heard say hey I already got it, therefore I'm not getting vaccinated. The first person I heard say he's not getting vaccinated is a relative who had Covid. He was convinced by an uncle who's an ambulance driver (who later got vaccinated because they forced him and couldn't afford to lose his job). > Even if you've gotten covid, go get vaccinated Don't give people medical advice unless you're their personal doctor.
      - cblackthornekc 5y ago
        > Don't give people medical advice unless you're their personal doctor. How about if you've already gotten covid, and are eligible to go get vaccinated, go get vaccinated. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html
cblackthornekc 5y ago
Still haven't gotten vaccinated and need to know where to go? https://www.vaccines.gov/ https://www.vaccines.gov/
- stmfreak 5y ago
  Nope and nope. Waiting for phase three trials to complete.
  - codyswann 5y ago
    What can phase three trials show us that an empirical trial of a billion people can’t?
    - the_dune_13 5y ago
      Well, I think everyone have had an opportunity to check results of phase three trials since last October or September?
  - jfengel 5y ago
    Phase 3 trials were concluded last year. That's why the vaccines are available. https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta... Did you mean that you were waiting for the regular use authorization rather than the emergency use authorization? OK, that's expected early next month: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-aiming-give-final-approval-pfizer-vaccine-by-early-next-month-ny-times-2021-08-03/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... You might want to make your reservation early, since I hear a lot of people claiming that they're waiting for that. Of course it's the very same vaccine that's available today; it's just a matter of going over the paperwork to make sure all of the i's are dotted and t's crossed.
tiahura 5y ago
At this point, we need to recognize the genie isn’t going back in the bottle. COVID 19 isn’t going away by Easter or when warm weather arrives, or when… Vaccinate yourself, get a booster when they come out, and stop waiting for herd immunity. It will be here right after herd immunity for the cold and flu set in.
eplanit 5y ago
It's the Huffington Post, so I can't believe what the reporter is saying. To be fair, it's an opinion piece. But, with intentionally misleading statements like "I am angry that the tragic scenes of prior surges are being played out yet again, but now with ICUs primarily filled with patients who have chosen not to be vaccinated.", it's hard to keep the eyes from rolling out of their sockets. I haven't heard of any ICU's being "filled", or hospital capacity being threatened like it was before a vaccine was made available. This doctor/writer is acting as though the threats to society/humanity are equal to a year ago, pre-vaccine. It may be true that most cases are with un-vaccinated people, but that's different than "the hospitals are filled".
- BrianOnHN 5y ago
  See Florida for filled ICUs.
  - numo16 5y ago
    Also Oklahoma: https://www.birminghamstar.com/news/270565700/covid-19-oklahoma-runs-out-of-icu-hospital-beds https://www.birminghamstar.com/news/270565700/covid-19-oklah...
  - javajosh 5y ago
    The numbers as reported by the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/florida-covid-cases.html There is an enormous spike happening right now. I believe it is because people have stopped wearing masks and social distancing, and the vaccination rate is ... actually not as bad as I'd expect (50%), but not enough to dampen new infection diffusion, especially given other practices. The political pushback is going to be an enormous factor. Gov. DeSantis panders to the GOP ignorant; this is, after all, Trump's home state.
- bydo 5y ago
  Los Angeles county, where the doctor who wrote the piece is based, currently is at 70% capacity for ICU. Which is not as bad as the last peak, when it was 93%, but is not great, and it's trending upward. https://covidactnow.org/us/california-ca/county/los_angeles_county/ https://covidactnow.org/us/california-ca/county/los_angeles_...
bserge 5y ago
I can't get antidepressants partly because of these people. And partly because doctors think they know better than everyone else. And also because they simply outright refuse to see me or they got too many patients. Just let me sign a waiver so I can get my medication freely, I don't need any other healthcare (no point in fixing a broken leg when you're dead, right?)
nprateem 5y ago
On a similar note: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-healthy-man-42-from-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-health...
- codersteve 5y ago
  Did you see the line near the bottom of the article: >>However, McCann said her brother had asthma in an earlier tweet on 3 July.
cs2733 5y ago
Several well researched articles on covid-19 can be found at https://swprs.org/contact/ https://swprs.org/contact/ It's not youtube/facebook/twitter "aproved material" but that's what Science is about, right? The marketplace of ideas? ;-)
mindcrime 5y ago
I really don't understand the anti-vaxxers. I mean, OK, when the vaccine first came out, I could understand a small measure of hesitancy. Hell, I even said something to the effect of "I don't necessarily want to be first in line." But at this point, the vaccines have been given to, what, billions of people? And the number of people who have suffered severe ramifications that can be attributed to a vaccine rounds to zero. And as far as "Well, we don't know the long-term effects" arguments go... OK, superficially that sounds reasonable. But there isn't, to the best of my knowledge, even a good theoretical explanation of how/why to expect any long-term effects. The vaccine itself is eliminated from your system in a few days if I understand correctly, leaving behind only anti-bodies manufactured by your body. So yeah, I guess it's possible, in principle, that 3 years from now, or 10 years from now, or whatever, people that took the vaccine could start keeling over spontaneously, or growing third eyeballs in the center of their foreheads or something. But the odds of that happening seem way, way, way beyond even "ludicrously low". To my way of thinking, it "rounds to impossible". So I'd like to know why these folks think differently and apparently expect something bad to happen if they take the vaccine.
- codyswann 5y ago
  Anti-vaxxers' rallying cry is "WE DON'T KNOW THE LONG TERM EFFECTS YET!" Which means, I guess they'll get the shot in 50 years?
  - dave333 5y ago
    the short term effect is without the vaccine you can be dead in three weeks so there's no logic behind what they are saying, just political will.
- senectus1 5y ago
  was having this exact conversation with my wife last night. my nephew and his mother are being very hesitant because "the vaccine is so new and untested"... They don't have any issue getting the flu vaccine every year... I just don't understand their mindset.
- kcplate 5y ago
whoaisme 5y ago
I remember thinking as a kid "why don't we breed out stupidity" - turns out breeding out stupidity is a terrifying phenomenon to witness and there is a ton of collateral damage that I didn't think about as a child. Having said that, at the point we are at right now, there is a part of me that is glad that unvaccinated people are dying. Fuck them, their stupidity is leading directly to them no longer existing and I'm okay with that - it's just the collateral damage I am chewing my nails about.
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Alupis 5y ago
Folks - if someone you know is not vaccinated at this point in time (in the US) - it's entirely on them if they get sick. And guess what - they already know this, made that decision, and nothing you rant and rave about is going to change it. Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for your own wellbeing. Vaccinated people do not need to wear masks to protect unvaccinated people at this point in time. It's time to stop catering policy towards a small percentage of the population that has decided for whatever reason to not get vaccinated. These people largely understand what they are doing - leave them alone and get on with life!
- csw-001 5y ago
  A couple of thoughts here. (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity because they either can't get the vaccine, or if they can get it they might not be fully protected by it. For that population, getting everyone vaccinated IS important and worth attempting. (2) More importantly, a spike in hospitalizations could threaten the healthcare system as a whole if we run out of ICU beds, exhaust doctors, expend billions in care, etc. The cost of the unvaccinated isn't borne just by them - its paid by all of us when they show up in the hospital needing expensive care, and/or we are forced to shutdown our economy out of concern over overfilled ICUs. That makes a discussion of mandatory vaccination completely reasonable, and not simply rhetorical. We should have tied CARES Act payments to vaccination... I'm guessing a $500 check would have persuaded almost everybody to get the shot. In the end the ROI of herd immunity might have been worth it?
  - Alupis 5y ago
    We're spent trillions already, and seem to be on course for a few more. At some point, the cost and devastation to the economy outweighs the costs of the pandemic. It's dark and brutal - but that's how high level policy has to be formed, ie. it's an unreasonable goal to prevent 100% of illnesses and death. > (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity Herd Immunity can be reached either by vaccinations, previous infections, or both. We're well on track to reach the "both" mark, or possibly are already past it.
thepangolino 5y ago
This reads like a fluff piece to hype a “pandemic” who barley killed as much people as the diarrhoea has in the same lapse of time. Not a single word about treatments other than artificial ventilation. Ivermectin as controversial as it may be but also antibody therapy seem to be completely ignored in this article just as in most hospitals.
- macintux 5y ago
  Looking at the CDC's annual death stats[0], the pandemic would be the number three killer, and that's after all the extreme measures we've taken. Where does this diarrhea comparison come from? [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
simplyunjustly 5y ago
Pretty odd article to see from fellow doctor and someone who gets angry at stuff like this probably should find another career. Is she angry at the patients who abused their bodies all their lives, resulting in their inpatient stay? All the heart failure patients who simply refuse to follow simple instructions that would keep them out of the hospital? I just looked, 42% of the patients on our inpatient floor with COVID-19 were vaccinated (this is a small hospital, so I'm not making any conclusion based on that).
- jaywalk 5y ago
  I know a doctor at a hospital and he said that the current percentage of vaccinated Covid admissions is very close to the overall percentage of vaccinated people in his area.
  - newsycom 5y ago
    Got anything more than hearsay to back that up?
  - CarelessExpert 5y ago
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Every jurisdiction reporting actual, real data and not just rumours on Fox News has indicated that over 90% of Covid admissions are unvaccinated, even in areas with greater than 50% of the population with two doses.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      There's nothing I can show you that would make you believe what I'm saying, so I'm not going to try. But I will say that I heard it directly from a doctor in a high-level position at a large-ish hospital. I know him very well, and he has zero reason to lie to me about it. But yeah, I'm probably lying (or being lied to) and it's all BS. Whatever works for you. The media (aside from Fox News) is always 100% truthful and must be trusted above everything. Same goes for the government.
      - 5y ago
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ShG401 5y ago
I respect the profession, but I cannot expect this doctor knows much or anything about the mechanisms by which these "vaccines" work. They aren't biochemists or medical researchers, they are years behind the data if not decades, often times. There are reasons to be aprehensive, especially given the nature of the adverse reactions, it is fair to speculate interactions with very important genes regulating transcription, non-canonical structures and even oncogenes.
- oliwarner 5y ago
  > it is fair to speculate Is it? Without cause or basis? If you had some of that, an expert might be able to answer your concerns. Comments like "it might give you cancer" only serve to Stoke more baseless fear. And also remember that list of unknown adverse interactions is as long when contacting covid. Only that has a much higher rate of observed illness and death.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Are you a biochemist or medical researcher?
xiphias2 5y ago
I just visited my grandmother's sister's family in the villages. They're not vaccinated at all, because they think that the vaccine is more dangerous than the Delta variant. I was much more sad than angry, especially not at them: the political system confused people too much. I think we should all do what we can for unvaccinated people, but at this time it's all their personal responsability even if the misinformation was created on purpuse.
umvi 5y ago
Once upon a time there was town called Statisticsville with a population of 1000 people. Every year around 8 people die. Sometimes 7, sometimes 9. One year, a new infectious disease came along and killed 2 additional people (both elderly). The population nearly had a civil war over these additional 2 deaths because some people thought the additional 2 deaths could have been prevented with better enforced public health practices while the other group thought it wasn't worth the social/economic costs. Looking forward to the next year, the people were still divided into two groups - those who were worried that the infectious disease might kill another person, and those that didn't really care much. The discord and contention between the groups escalated with each side increasingly rigid and unable to empathize with the other side until violence broke out and Statisticsville descended into anarchy. The End
- poslathian 5y ago
  Not sure why downvoted. Do people think this comment indicates you are an antivaxxer? Which part of the comment suggests that?
  - stevenalowe 5y ago
    perhaps the part where the virus death rate is off by a factor of 10
    - umvi 5y ago
      Huh, in what way was it off by a factor of 10? Population of USA is 330M [0] 2,854,838 registered deaths in 2019, which is 0.8% of the population, or about 8 in 1000 [1] As of December 31 2020, around 400k people had died of covid in the USA, but let's just be conservative and pretend 600k people died in 2020. 600k out of 330M is 0.18% of the population or about 2 in 1000 [2] [0] https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/ https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population... [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_dat...
CivBase 5y ago
Most people aren't doctors, epidemiologists, or scientists of any sort. Nobody can be experts at everything, so we rely on expert authorities to break things down for us. Since we're not experts ourselves, we cannot independently verify what the experts are saying, which means our relationship with them is built on trust. But what happens when a nation becomes so fiercely divided along political lines that we collectively stop trusting expert authorities? What's more, people don't like being told they're wrong. They especially don't like being talked down to. When experts (and more importantly, those arguing on social media on behalf of those experts) use demeaning language to address critics and people with concerns, the people don't respond well. Some of them will begrudgingly admit they were wrong, but humans are not purely logical creatures. Many will write off those who talk down to them as malicious or corrupt and use that as justification to disregard what they say. We all need to start showing more respect to one another. Be patient and compassionate when dealing with people who are currently opposed to getting vaccinated - even if they don't show you the same courtesy. It wont earn you fake internet points and you're certainly not guaranteed to convince them of anything, but you'll never reach them doing anything else.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  We don't like talking politics here on HN, but we can't hide from the truth: It's not an issue of respect or political polarization. It's the right-wing political movement which has an extreme ideology of reactionaryism. No matter what the issue or situation, they will be against it. Talking more respectfully to them won't change it. It's not possible to talk to them, because most public communication is filtered through reactionary propaganda. For example, President Biden is generally respectful, but cannot reach them. If we don't deal with this movement now, it will continue to grow stronger. Clearly there are no limits to it: Vaccination and masks to prevent a pandemic disease, attempts to overturn an election and seize power, etc.
  - CivBase 5y ago
    I can't disagree more. Doesn't it feel a little too convenient to label your opposition as "beyond saving"? And how do you propose we "deal with this movement now" if you've convinced yourself they can't be reasoned with? I know it's not true from first hand experience. I've convinced a dozen people with hard-right political ideologies to get the vaccine. It hasn't always worked, but I've had much more success than not. Respect is difficult, but it works. And you'll never be able to justifiably expect others to respect you if you don't respect them first. Be the change you want to see. Also, one person being respectful is not enough to change things at scale - especially someone in as naturally divisive a position as POTUS.
yread 5y ago
I thought there would be more stuff that the patients actually sad, in the end it was just intubation kills patients they wish for chest compressions without intubation in the event of a respiratory arrest (what?) they refuse to wear “muzzles” when grocery shopping they didn’t get vaccinated because they “just didn’t get around to it”
mickotron 5y ago
My country (Australia) has botched their rollout. I wanted to get vaccinated, registered my "interest" to get vaccinated months ago, then waited for the invitation to book an appointment, booked my first, then second appointment. This process took months, amid shortages in Pfizer, waiting times of more than an hour on the phone to book appointments, their online booking system simply not working during high demand. What I'm saying is, as a person highly motivated to get vaccinated, it wasn't easy. Our gov and officials tell us how lazy we are to not be vaccinated, but I can understand why a lot of people aren't. In some cases it is made too hard to jump through all the hoops.
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67 points by mcguire 5y ago

I can. I got my shots as soon as I could, but I know lots of people that will never do it. Yesterday I was eating at a ramen shop - traffic was slow, so I got to listen to the bulletproof young man waiting tables talk to his friend at length about how he'd never get the shot, just like the flu, I'm not an anti-vaxxer - but, I don't wear tinfoil hats - but. The list of reasons not to do it was long and apparently convincing enough to them.

bserge 5y ago
A relative of mine is buying into the vaccine conspiracies along with shitting on depression and other mental problems, and honestly, I wish they'd get a serious case of Covid or something. These people don't learn until someone they know actually fucking dies.
- a3n 5y ago
  It's the "but I'm here to tell you folks, it's real" story. Some people just don't give a shit if it doesn't affect them personally.
- flycaliguy 5y ago
  This anti-vax nonsense has really tested my ability to not wish suffering on others. I’ve climbed that hill and found the empathy for these people, but it took actual mental effort.
- Inate_Hikkers 5y ago
  I'm not conspiratorial but I am "vaccine hesitant" as they call it here in the US. For instance, if I theoretically got bitten by a rabid dog and I didn't want to die I would take the rabies vax. I personally disapprove of the COVID vaccine since it is very unusual for vaccines to be made in two days...and evidence regarding long-term side effects is scarce. However if taking the Covid vaccine meant I would get $10k in cash, then of course I would take it. https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-designed-coronavirus-vaccine-in-2-days-2020-11?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-designed-coronavirus... If you haven't seen my earlier comment I am the guy that DM'd you on reddit, I noticed your account was suspended and reverse searched the username.
  - bserge 5y ago
    Yeah, I am more pissed at the dismissal of metal health. Don't care much about Covid, had it, it was weak. I'd take the vaccine just to regain the freedoms. Then again I'd take anything lol, some shit I tried really sent me down some weird holes. And I would welcome death, so meh. Oh that guy, hey! I came home and my account is banned heh. Fantastic.
    - Inate_Hikkers 5y ago
      Instead of trying to tackle crime, drug use, depression, etc. at a surface level, the government should take a step back and try to look at WHY we are slaves to instant dopamine.
ksec 5y ago
OK, so what were those reasons?
- RyJones 5y ago
  The most convincing one was a version of "what if in 20 years they're running those ads like they did for mesothelioma?"
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > The most convincing one was a version of "what if in 20 years they're running those ads like they did for mesothelioma?" That argument is equally valid against doing almost anything, not just getting the vaccine.
    - RyJones 5y ago
      I didn’t say I was convinced; it’s the argument they returned to, tho.
tobr 5y ago
I have a hunch there’s quite a few people who just don’t like needles, and are happy there are so many creative excuses to avoid getting the shot.
- codyswann 5y ago
  I was asking the same thing the other day. No way to prove it, but I would say it's probably 25%. Before this all started, I knew quite a few people who were just terrified of needles. Now, it's not that they're terrified, it's just [insert BS reason]
- fmorel 5y ago
  I'm prone to fainting when needles are involved, and I fainted at the pharmacy after my first shot. I still got my second one later. It's worth it.
- williamstein 5y ago
  You're right. Needle phobia is an officially recognized phobia, and there's a Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_needles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_needles) about it, with estimates from 10% to well over 20% of the US adult population being needle phobic. (I'm vaccinated and not needle phobic.)
- scamper 5y ago
  It me. I put off the needle for a long time—in fact my last shot was in 1991. Until last month. And hopefully that will be my last needle, since so many more humane methods of delivery are just around the corner.
- squarefoot 5y ago
  Possibly, but they wouldn't make a noticeable number. The antivaxxers crowd is bigger and more motivated by the same nonsense. I wonder why they, including the same people who hate injections, never complained about mandatory vaccines for their kids, a practice that went on for decades in many countries? For example, most European countries had and still have 10 or more obligatory vaccinations for diseases that were finally defeated thanks to the practice, yet I have to meet one parent who refuses to let their kids receive it. I have good memory, and don't recall of anyone screaming when I was taking the anti-smallpox shot as a kid; it's just the same bullshit planted in their heads through social media. The covid vaccine is newer, therefore not tested enough? Bullshit! Every vaccine has been "young" at some time. There are no records of people protesting back then about treatments against diphteria, meningitis, polyo and others. There may be some side effects? Again a pile of bullshit. Lots of medicines can have side effects but people don't protest in the streets about that. Years back I took too many painkillers for my back pains, unfortunately they attacked my guts bacterial flora so I got an intestinal blockage while experiencing a sudden drop in blood red cells. I spent weeks taking tests and restoratives before it was clear I didn't have leukemia, which is present in my family and is what my father died of. No, it's not fear of the needle, it's pure and simple politicized misinformation through social media and other sources. Those idiots follow what their leaders say without turning on the brain; no critical thinking, or any consideration for the evidence: they're the perfect army any corrupt politician would love to herd.
chrismcb 5y ago
I'm curious, if you are young, what are the reasons to get vaccinated?
- iceyyou 5y ago
  to prevent the spread of disease
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    It seems like these vaccines don't actually do that, though. At least not when it comes to the Delta variant.
    - CarelessExpert 5y ago
      Not even remotely true. Vaccines reduce ones chance of acquiring a Delta infection by a significant margin (not as high as previous variants but still significant). Even if you assume just 50% effectiveness in preventing disease (which is very conservative), that dramatically lowers the R-value and slows spread.
      - jaywalk 5y ago
        > Vaccines clearly reduce ones chance of acquiring a COVID infection by a significant margin. All of that data is pre-Delta. The best thing you can say about the vaccines today is that they tend to reduce the overall severity/prevent people from dying.
        CarelessExpert 5y ago
        You really need to stop spreading falsehoods, you're not helping: https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/vaccines-remain-largely-effective-against-delta-variant-counter-to-claims-from-fox-news-guest/ https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/vaccines-remain-largely-ef... The absolute lowest bound estimate was an Israeli study: > In late July, the ministry further reduced its vaccine effectiveness estimate for symptomatic COVID-19 to 40.5% However, they have failed to provide the data necessary to evaluate their results, and so at this time there's pretty wide skepticism regarding this figure. In contrast: > A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine on July 21 by Public Health England, for example, found that after the two recommended doses, the effectiveness of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in preventing symptomatic disease in the U.K. fell only slightly, to 88.0% against delta Being a betting man, I'd say the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but even at 60-70% effectiveness in preventing symptomatic Delta infection, vaccination leads to a significant reduction in R-value.
senectus1 5y ago
we had a 20yr old, unvaccinated die suddenly from covid just yesterday :-( No co-morb and otherwise very fit and healthy. How long until people LEARN.

bogota 5y ago

Hard to read this it’s just way too editorialized by the author. We get it you’re mad about the pandemic and how it’s handled. Supposedly being a doctor gives you more credibility but only on vaccinations not on public health policy. Anyway im sick of reading articles with no other point than to make you mad. But its HP what can you expect. Edit: not really going to argue with anyone my point stands. Just another stupid piece made to make people mad. Your comments further reinforce this. Be mad but it doesn’t help.

ghthor 5y ago
IMO Most of the "unvaccinated" are that way because they've already had covid and would rather be part of the control group for this large experiment. I just don't buy articles like this for the reason you stated.
- cblackthornekc 5y ago
  You would be the first person that I've heard say hey I already got it, therefore I'm not getting vaccinated. Even if you've gotten covid, go get vaccinated
  - xdennis 5y ago
    > You would be the first person that I've heard say hey I already got it, therefore I'm not getting vaccinated. The first person I heard say he's not getting vaccinated is a relative who had Covid. He was convinced by an uncle who's an ambulance driver (who later got vaccinated because they forced him and couldn't afford to lose his job). > Even if you've gotten covid, go get vaccinated Don't give people medical advice unless you're their personal doctor.
    - cblackthornekc 5y ago
      > Don't give people medical advice unless you're their personal doctor. How about if you've already gotten covid, and are eligible to go get vaccinated, go get vaccinated. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

cblackthornekc 5y ago

Still haven't gotten vaccinated and need to know where to go? https://www.vaccines.gov/ https://www.vaccines.gov/

stmfreak 5y ago
Nope and nope. Waiting for phase three trials to complete.
- codyswann 5y ago
  What can phase three trials show us that an empirical trial of a billion people can’t?
  - the_dune_13 5y ago
    Well, I think everyone have had an opportunity to check results of phase three trials since last October or September?
- jfengel 5y ago
  Phase 3 trials were concluded last year. That's why the vaccines are available. https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta... Did you mean that you were waiting for the regular use authorization rather than the emergency use authorization? OK, that's expected early next month: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-aiming-give-final-approval-pfizer-vaccine-by-early-next-month-ny-times-2021-08-03/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... You might want to make your reservation early, since I hear a lot of people claiming that they're waiting for that. Of course it's the very same vaccine that's available today; it's just a matter of going over the paperwork to make sure all of the i's are dotted and t's crossed.

tiahura 5y ago

At this point, we need to recognize the genie isn’t going back in the bottle. COVID 19 isn’t going away by Easter or when warm weather arrives, or when… Vaccinate yourself, get a booster when they come out, and stop waiting for herd immunity. It will be here right after herd immunity for the cold and flu set in.

eplanit 5y ago

It's the Huffington Post, so I can't believe what the reporter is saying. To be fair, it's an opinion piece. But, with intentionally misleading statements like "I am angry that the tragic scenes of prior surges are being played out yet again, but now with ICUs primarily filled with patients who have chosen not to be vaccinated.", it's hard to keep the eyes from rolling out of their sockets. I haven't heard of any ICU's being "filled", or hospital capacity being threatened like it was before a vaccine was made available. This doctor/writer is acting as though the threats to society/humanity are equal to a year ago, pre-vaccine. It may be true that most cases are with un-vaccinated people, but that's different than "the hospitals are filled".

BrianOnHN 5y ago
See Florida for filled ICUs.
- numo16 5y ago
  Also Oklahoma: https://www.birminghamstar.com/news/270565700/covid-19-oklahoma-runs-out-of-icu-hospital-beds https://www.birminghamstar.com/news/270565700/covid-19-oklah...
- javajosh 5y ago
  The numbers as reported by the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/florida-covid-cases.html There is an enormous spike happening right now. I believe it is because people have stopped wearing masks and social distancing, and the vaccination rate is ... actually not as bad as I'd expect (50%), but not enough to dampen new infection diffusion, especially given other practices. The political pushback is going to be an enormous factor. Gov. DeSantis panders to the GOP ignorant; this is, after all, Trump's home state.
bydo 5y ago
Los Angeles county, where the doctor who wrote the piece is based, currently is at 70% capacity for ICU. Which is not as bad as the last peak, when it was 93%, but is not great, and it's trending upward. https://covidactnow.org/us/california-ca/county/los_angeles_county/ https://covidactnow.org/us/california-ca/county/los_angeles_...

bserge 5y ago

I can't get antidepressants partly because of these people. And partly because doctors think they know better than everyone else. And also because they simply outright refuse to see me or they got too many patients. Just let me sign a waiver so I can get my medication freely, I don't need any other healthcare (no point in fixing a broken leg when you're dead, right?)

nprateem 5y ago

On a similar note: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-healthy-man-42-from-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/04/fit-and-health...

codersteve 5y ago
Did you see the line near the bottom of the article: >>However, McCann said her brother had asthma in an earlier tweet on 3 July.

cs2733 5y ago

Several well researched articles on covid-19 can be found at https://swprs.org/contact/ https://swprs.org/contact/ It's not youtube/facebook/twitter "aproved material" but that's what Science is about, right? The marketplace of ideas? ;-)

mindcrime 5y ago

I really don't understand the anti-vaxxers. I mean, OK, when the vaccine first came out, I could understand a small measure of hesitancy. Hell, I even said something to the effect of "I don't necessarily want to be first in line." But at this point, the vaccines have been given to, what, billions of people? And the number of people who have suffered severe ramifications that can be attributed to a vaccine rounds to zero. And as far as "Well, we don't know the long-term effects" arguments go... OK, superficially that sounds reasonable. But there isn't, to the best of my knowledge, even a good theoretical explanation of how/why to expect any long-term effects. The vaccine itself is eliminated from your system in a few days if I understand correctly, leaving behind only anti-bodies manufactured by your body. So yeah, I guess it's possible, in principle, that 3 years from now, or 10 years from now, or whatever, people that took the vaccine could start keeling over spontaneously, or growing third eyeballs in the center of their foreheads or something. But the odds of that happening seem way, way, way beyond even "ludicrously low". To my way of thinking, it "rounds to impossible". So I'd like to know why these folks think differently and apparently expect something bad to happen if they take the vaccine.

codyswann 5y ago
Anti-vaxxers' rallying cry is "WE DON'T KNOW THE LONG TERM EFFECTS YET!" Which means, I guess they'll get the shot in 50 years?
- dave333 5y ago
  the short term effect is without the vaccine you can be dead in three weeks so there's no logic behind what they are saying, just political will.
senectus1 5y ago
was having this exact conversation with my wife last night. my nephew and his mother are being very hesitant because "the vaccine is so new and untested"... They don't have any issue getting the flu vaccine every year... I just don't understand their mindset.
kcplate 5y ago

whoaisme 5y ago

I remember thinking as a kid "why don't we breed out stupidity" - turns out breeding out stupidity is a terrifying phenomenon to witness and there is a ton of collateral damage that I didn't think about as a child. Having said that, at the point we are at right now, there is a part of me that is glad that unvaccinated people are dying. Fuck them, their stupidity is leading directly to them no longer existing and I'm okay with that - it's just the collateral damage I am chewing my nails about.

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Alupis 5y ago

Folks - if someone you know is not vaccinated at this point in time (in the US) - it's entirely on them if they get sick. And guess what - they already know this, made that decision, and nothing you rant and rave about is going to change it. Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for your own wellbeing. Vaccinated people do not need to wear masks to protect unvaccinated people at this point in time. It's time to stop catering policy towards a small percentage of the population that has decided for whatever reason to not get vaccinated. These people largely understand what they are doing - leave them alone and get on with life!

csw-001 5y ago
A couple of thoughts here. (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity because they either can't get the vaccine, or if they can get it they might not be fully protected by it. For that population, getting everyone vaccinated IS important and worth attempting. (2) More importantly, a spike in hospitalizations could threaten the healthcare system as a whole if we run out of ICU beds, exhaust doctors, expend billions in care, etc. The cost of the unvaccinated isn't borne just by them - its paid by all of us when they show up in the hospital needing expensive care, and/or we are forced to shutdown our economy out of concern over overfilled ICUs. That makes a discussion of mandatory vaccination completely reasonable, and not simply rhetorical. We should have tied CARES Act payments to vaccination... I'm guessing a $500 check would have persuaded almost everybody to get the shot. In the end the ROI of herd immunity might have been worth it?
- Alupis 5y ago
  We're spent trillions already, and seem to be on course for a few more. At some point, the cost and devastation to the economy outweighs the costs of the pandemic. It's dark and brutal - but that's how high level policy has to be formed, ie. it's an unreasonable goal to prevent 100% of illnesses and death. > (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity Herd Immunity can be reached either by vaccinations, previous infections, or both. We're well on track to reach the "both" mark, or possibly are already past it.

thepangolino 5y ago

This reads like a fluff piece to hype a “pandemic” who barley killed as much people as the diarrhoea has in the same lapse of time. Not a single word about treatments other than artificial ventilation. Ivermectin as controversial as it may be but also antibody therapy seem to be completely ignored in this article just as in most hospitals.

macintux 5y ago
Looking at the CDC's annual death stats[0], the pandemic would be the number three killer, and that's after all the extreme measures we've taken. Where does this diarrhea comparison come from? [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

simplyunjustly 5y ago

Pretty odd article to see from fellow doctor and someone who gets angry at stuff like this probably should find another career. Is she angry at the patients who abused their bodies all their lives, resulting in their inpatient stay? All the heart failure patients who simply refuse to follow simple instructions that would keep them out of the hospital? I just looked, 42% of the patients on our inpatient floor with COVID-19 were vaccinated (this is a small hospital, so I'm not making any conclusion based on that).

jaywalk 5y ago
I know a doctor at a hospital and he said that the current percentage of vaccinated Covid admissions is very close to the overall percentage of vaccinated people in his area.
- newsycom 5y ago
  Got anything more than hearsay to back that up?
- CarelessExpert 5y ago
  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Every jurisdiction reporting actual, real data and not just rumours on Fox News has indicated that over 90% of Covid admissions are unvaccinated, even in areas with greater than 50% of the population with two doses.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    There's nothing I can show you that would make you believe what I'm saying, so I'm not going to try. But I will say that I heard it directly from a doctor in a high-level position at a large-ish hospital. I know him very well, and he has zero reason to lie to me about it. But yeah, I'm probably lying (or being lied to) and it's all BS. Whatever works for you. The media (aside from Fox News) is always 100% truthful and must be trusted above everything. Same goes for the government.
    - 5y ago

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ShG401 5y ago

I respect the profession, but I cannot expect this doctor knows much or anything about the mechanisms by which these "vaccines" work. They aren't biochemists or medical researchers, they are years behind the data if not decades, often times. There are reasons to be aprehensive, especially given the nature of the adverse reactions, it is fair to speculate interactions with very important genes regulating transcription, non-canonical structures and even oncogenes.

oliwarner 5y ago
> it is fair to speculate Is it? Without cause or basis? If you had some of that, an expert might be able to answer your concerns. Comments like "it might give you cancer" only serve to Stoke more baseless fear. And also remember that list of unknown adverse interactions is as long when contacting covid. Only that has a much higher rate of observed illness and death.
mcguire 5y ago
Are you a biochemist or medical researcher?

xiphias2 5y ago

I just visited my grandmother's sister's family in the villages. They're not vaccinated at all, because they think that the vaccine is more dangerous than the Delta variant. I was much more sad than angry, especially not at them: the political system confused people too much. I think we should all do what we can for unvaccinated people, but at this time it's all their personal responsability even if the misinformation was created on purpuse.

umvi 5y ago

Once upon a time there was town called Statisticsville with a population of 1000 people. Every year around 8 people die. Sometimes 7, sometimes 9. One year, a new infectious disease came along and killed 2 additional people (both elderly). The population nearly had a civil war over these additional 2 deaths because some people thought the additional 2 deaths could have been prevented with better enforced public health practices while the other group thought it wasn't worth the social/economic costs. Looking forward to the next year, the people were still divided into two groups - those who were worried that the infectious disease might kill another person, and those that didn't really care much. The discord and contention between the groups escalated with each side increasingly rigid and unable to empathize with the other side until violence broke out and Statisticsville descended into anarchy. The End

poslathian 5y ago
Not sure why downvoted. Do people think this comment indicates you are an antivaxxer? Which part of the comment suggests that?
- stevenalowe 5y ago
  perhaps the part where the virus death rate is off by a factor of 10
  - umvi 5y ago
    Huh, in what way was it off by a factor of 10? Population of USA is 330M [0] 2,854,838 registered deaths in 2019, which is 0.8% of the population, or about 8 in 1000 [1] As of December 31 2020, around 400k people had died of covid in the USA, but let's just be conservative and pretend 600k people died in 2020. 600k out of 330M is 0.18% of the population or about 2 in 1000 [2] [0] https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/ https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population... [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_dat...

CivBase 5y ago

Most people aren't doctors, epidemiologists, or scientists of any sort. Nobody can be experts at everything, so we rely on expert authorities to break things down for us. Since we're not experts ourselves, we cannot independently verify what the experts are saying, which means our relationship with them is built on trust. But what happens when a nation becomes so fiercely divided along political lines that we collectively stop trusting expert authorities? What's more, people don't like being told they're wrong. They especially don't like being talked down to. When experts (and more importantly, those arguing on social media on behalf of those experts) use demeaning language to address critics and people with concerns, the people don't respond well. Some of them will begrudgingly admit they were wrong, but humans are not purely logical creatures. Many will write off those who talk down to them as malicious or corrupt and use that as justification to disregard what they say. We all need to start showing more respect to one another. Be patient and compassionate when dealing with people who are currently opposed to getting vaccinated - even if they don't show you the same courtesy. It wont earn you fake internet points and you're certainly not guaranteed to convince them of anything, but you'll never reach them doing anything else.

wolverine876 5y ago
We don't like talking politics here on HN, but we can't hide from the truth: It's not an issue of respect or political polarization. It's the right-wing political movement which has an extreme ideology of reactionaryism. No matter what the issue or situation, they will be against it. Talking more respectfully to them won't change it. It's not possible to talk to them, because most public communication is filtered through reactionary propaganda. For example, President Biden is generally respectful, but cannot reach them. If we don't deal with this movement now, it will continue to grow stronger. Clearly there are no limits to it: Vaccination and masks to prevent a pandemic disease, attempts to overturn an election and seize power, etc.
- CivBase 5y ago
  I can't disagree more. Doesn't it feel a little too convenient to label your opposition as "beyond saving"? And how do you propose we "deal with this movement now" if you've convinced yourself they can't be reasoned with? I know it's not true from first hand experience. I've convinced a dozen people with hard-right political ideologies to get the vaccine. It hasn't always worked, but I've had much more success than not. Respect is difficult, but it works. And you'll never be able to justifiably expect others to respect you if you don't respect them first. Be the change you want to see. Also, one person being respectful is not enough to change things at scale - especially someone in as naturally divisive a position as POTUS.

yread 5y ago

I thought there would be more stuff that the patients actually sad, in the end it was just intubation kills patients they wish for chest compressions without intubation in the event of a respiratory arrest (what?) they refuse to wear “muzzles” when grocery shopping they didn’t get vaccinated because they “just didn’t get around to it”

mickotron 5y ago

My country (Australia) has botched their rollout. I wanted to get vaccinated, registered my "interest" to get vaccinated months ago, then waited for the invitation to book an appointment, booked my first, then second appointment. This process took months, amid shortages in Pfizer, waiting times of more than an hour on the phone to book appointments, their online booking system simply not working during high demand. What I'm saying is, as a person highly motivated to get vaccinated, it wasn't easy. Our gov and officials tell us how lazy we are to not be vaccinated, but I can understand why a lot of people aren't. In some cases it is made too hard to jump through all the hoops.

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