4 ms·

In the past few years IT salaries in continental Europe have increased significantly and, adjusted for the cost of life, German salaries are significantly highe

by mmarq 5y ago

In the past few years IT salaries in continental Europe have increased significantly and, adjusted for the cost of life, German salaries are significantly higher. French and Spanish are almost on par. If you make less than 40K£ in London, you are likely to experience a form of poverty that is unseen in the continent (pests in your flat, revenge evictions, very very bad healthcare, etc…). Outside of London, salaries are ridiculously low.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
If by Europe you mean only the super expensive cities like Paris, Amsterdam or Munich, then yeah salaries maybe have increased, but to what good when property price increases have far outpaces whatever salary increases the industry may have seen. And most who stayed at one job haven't gotten any significant salary increases unless they job hopped often which brings it's own problems later in ones career. Edit: Had a quick look at jobs in Munich and curious where those high salaries are as 80k for senior positions on 40+h/week seem like a joke to me considering how expensive it is to live there and how high taxes are.
- mmarq 5y ago
  A senior dev in London makes 60-80K, so it’s almost the same without cost of life adjustments. Outside of London, economy-wise, you are likely to find places more similar to eastern Europe than to Bavaria. 80K€ in Munich is a good salary, considering that you don’t have to pay for private healthcare (in the UK you have to), education is free (in the UK it costs a fortune, either in private school fees or in housing premia) and rents are much much lower than in London (for equivalent properties). Taxes are higher in Germany, but not extremely so if you account for child deductions and family support. A family of 2 in London making 80K per annum, will spend ~20K to send a child to a random nursery, 5-6K£ in healthcare and 2K£ in public transport (just to name the first 3 thing that come to mind), and will be much poorer than a German family making 50K€ per annum.
  - objclxt 5y ago
    Healthcare is free in the UK. I don’t know where you’re getting the idea you need to spend “£5-6k” on it. A lot of employers in the UK offer additional health insurance as a benefit, but that’s on top of - not instead of - what the NHS offers you.
    - mmarq 5y ago
      The quality of service of the NHS is extremely low compared to its European counterparts. It’s not my problem, because I have a very comprehensive healthcare insurance from my employer, which costs more than 300£ per month per person. Just to give a practical example, you can go through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing an NHS gynaecologist (I know because it’s my experience), and if you go to private doctors, which you should, 3 visits plus some ultrasound scans and tests may cost in excess of 3000£. Also GPs have a tendency to prescribe (random) medicines without referring patients to specialists, which is simply not civilised, and so you end up going to a private doctor and paying 2-300£ per visit. A family of 3 can easily spend 5-6K£ per annum in healthcare, especially during the first years of the child.
      - martinald 5y ago
        With the NHS you need to "play" the system a bit unfortunately. The key is finding a great GP and asking for him/her by name when getting an appointment. There are a lot of terrible GPs out there and if you just listen to them you may get screwed. If you have a good GP (I would recommend looking up the practice and figuring the head GP there and then asking for him/her by name) the healthcare system is pretty good. Yes specialist referrals can take a while, but again if you have a good relationship with your GP they will be able to expedite it for you. It's definitely not the same as the German system for example where every minor issue gets a million tests and multiple specialists, but usually that isn't needed. If you feel you need that and want to spend thousands on private appointments with specialists it is not going to be a good system for you. FWIW I've never ever heard of anyone that hasn't had loads of ultrascans in pregnancy. That is not normal at all.
Cederfjard 5y ago
When you say ”very very bad healthcare”, are you referring to the NHS?
- mmarq 5y ago
  Yes, the NHS is weirdly worshipped in the UK, but is much worse than the Italian or the German healthcare systems (to name the 2 I experienced personally). The emergency service is good, but prevention is borderline non-existent and getting referrals to see specialists may be challenging.
  - heavenlyblue 5y ago
    NHS is a British religion. They think they invented it and take any criticism of it as a direct Tory speak for it’s privatisation.
alibarber 5y ago
I 'earned' about 24K (equivalent before tax - as a stipend) as a doctoral student in London. Yes, once we had a mouse in the flatshare, but this is ridiculously exaggerating things.
- mmarq 5y ago
  > Yes, once we had a mouse in the flatshare While everybody I know who rented in London had to deal with mice or bed-bugs (and I don’t fully understand what these are, because before coming to London I never heard of them), at least those on low income, I don’t know of any other place where this is even remotely true.
  - elzbardico 5y ago
    Jesus! I haven’t seen stuff like that even in Lagos, Rio de Janeiro, bogota or Mexico City. Truly medieval stuff!
    - mmarq 5y ago
      Unfortunately rent regulations in the UK are designed to protect landlords from tenants, contracts are renewed yearly and you are always at risk of eviction. So maintenance is almost non-existent and if you protest, you will likely end up evicted. After god knows how many years or decades of this state of affairs, the housing stock in London is of a ridiculously low quality, and a local would consider normal to have a mouse in a flat and to have to deal with it (rather than the landlord paying for pest control). To get what in the continent would be a normal flat, you need to aim at what the locals may call “luxury apartments”. And still, if it wasn’t built after 2010, you’d still have to deal with rotten sash windows, no escalator and other crazy stuff I’ve never seen before.
    - foldr 5y ago
      Mmarq is exaggerating quite a bit. It may be that they are accurately reporting their own experiences, but as a description of typical life in London, take it with a huge pinch of salt.

by mmarq 5y ago

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

If by Europe you mean only the super expensive cities like Paris, Amsterdam or Munich, then yeah salaries maybe have increased, but to what good when property price increases have far outpaces whatever salary increases the industry may have seen. And most who stayed at one job haven't gotten any significant salary increases unless they job hopped often which brings it's own problems later in ones career. Edit: Had a quick look at jobs in Munich and curious where those high salaries are as 80k for senior positions on 40+h/week seem like a joke to me considering how expensive it is to live there and how high taxes are.

mmarq 5y ago
A senior dev in London makes 60-80K, so it’s almost the same without cost of life adjustments. Outside of London, economy-wise, you are likely to find places more similar to eastern Europe than to Bavaria. 80K€ in Munich is a good salary, considering that you don’t have to pay for private healthcare (in the UK you have to), education is free (in the UK it costs a fortune, either in private school fees or in housing premia) and rents are much much lower than in London (for equivalent properties). Taxes are higher in Germany, but not extremely so if you account for child deductions and family support. A family of 2 in London making 80K per annum, will spend ~20K to send a child to a random nursery, 5-6K£ in healthcare and 2K£ in public transport (just to name the first 3 thing that come to mind), and will be much poorer than a German family making 50K€ per annum.
- objclxt 5y ago
  Healthcare is free in the UK. I don’t know where you’re getting the idea you need to spend “£5-6k” on it. A lot of employers in the UK offer additional health insurance as a benefit, but that’s on top of - not instead of - what the NHS offers you.
  - mmarq 5y ago
    The quality of service of the NHS is extremely low compared to its European counterparts. It’s not my problem, because I have a very comprehensive healthcare insurance from my employer, which costs more than 300£ per month per person. Just to give a practical example, you can go through an entire pregnancy without ever seeing an NHS gynaecologist (I know because it’s my experience), and if you go to private doctors, which you should, 3 visits plus some ultrasound scans and tests may cost in excess of 3000£. Also GPs have a tendency to prescribe (random) medicines without referring patients to specialists, which is simply not civilised, and so you end up going to a private doctor and paying 2-300£ per visit. A family of 3 can easily spend 5-6K£ per annum in healthcare, especially during the first years of the child.
    - martinald 5y ago
      With the NHS you need to "play" the system a bit unfortunately. The key is finding a great GP and asking for him/her by name when getting an appointment. There are a lot of terrible GPs out there and if you just listen to them you may get screwed. If you have a good GP (I would recommend looking up the practice and figuring the head GP there and then asking for him/her by name) the healthcare system is pretty good. Yes specialist referrals can take a while, but again if you have a good relationship with your GP they will be able to expedite it for you. It's definitely not the same as the German system for example where every minor issue gets a million tests and multiple specialists, but usually that isn't needed. If you feel you need that and want to spend thousands on private appointments with specialists it is not going to be a good system for you. FWIW I've never ever heard of anyone that hasn't had loads of ultrascans in pregnancy. That is not normal at all.

Cederfjard 5y ago

When you say ”very very bad healthcare”, are you referring to the NHS?

mmarq 5y ago
Yes, the NHS is weirdly worshipped in the UK, but is much worse than the Italian or the German healthcare systems (to name the 2 I experienced personally). The emergency service is good, but prevention is borderline non-existent and getting referrals to see specialists may be challenging.
- heavenlyblue 5y ago
  NHS is a British religion. They think they invented it and take any criticism of it as a direct Tory speak for it’s privatisation.

alibarber 5y ago

I 'earned' about 24K (equivalent before tax - as a stipend) as a doctoral student in London. Yes, once we had a mouse in the flatshare, but this is ridiculously exaggerating things.

mmarq 5y ago
> Yes, once we had a mouse in the flatshare While everybody I know who rented in London had to deal with mice or bed-bugs (and I don’t fully understand what these are, because before coming to London I never heard of them), at least those on low income, I don’t know of any other place where this is even remotely true.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Jesus! I haven’t seen stuff like that even in Lagos, Rio de Janeiro, bogota or Mexico City. Truly medieval stuff!
  - mmarq 5y ago
    Unfortunately rent regulations in the UK are designed to protect landlords from tenants, contracts are renewed yearly and you are always at risk of eviction. So maintenance is almost non-existent and if you protest, you will likely end up evicted. After god knows how many years or decades of this state of affairs, the housing stock in London is of a ridiculously low quality, and a local would consider normal to have a mouse in a flat and to have to deal with it (rather than the landlord paying for pest control). To get what in the continent would be a normal flat, you need to aim at what the locals may call “luxury apartments”. And still, if it wasn’t built after 2010, you’d still have to deal with rotten sash windows, no escalator and other crazy stuff I’ve never seen before.
  - foldr 5y ago
    Mmarq is exaggerating quite a bit. It may be that they are accurately reporting their own experiences, but as a description of typical life in London, take it with a huge pinch of salt.