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There is currently no system in operation that can deorbit large amounts of space debris. If there's some debris in space, who pays to clean it up? Is it a com

There is currently no system in operation that can deorbit large amounts of space debris. If there's some debris in space, who pays to clean it up? Is it a company that wants to use an orbit that might be affected? Or is debris attributable and the 'owner' pays to clean up their own mess? Or is there a fund that a consortium of governments and businesses that use space should (will?) pay into? I can imagine that the tech to do clean up is eminently achievable, and getting something to orbit to actually do the job is likely to be cheap enough soon, but I can't quite imagine why anyone would actually be a customer of a space cleaning company.

ericb 5y ago
I think the smart move is to put a regulatory requirement to either fund removal via a satellite tax, prepayment, or require a 1-up-1-down trade. Selling a satellite cleanup credit like companies do with carbon or EV credits could work.
- f6v 5y ago
  The problem is space doesn’t belong to anyone in particular. Who’s going to enforce it? I suppose the UN could, but, unfortunately, it’s completely powerless.
  - tpierceturion 5y ago
    Good point. It's a lot like international waters at this point but there is a very interesting aspect regarding this. Currently the FCC is the primary governing body in the space realm and requires all international satellites to abide by their rules in order to access the US telecommunications market. This translated to ~90% of all satellites following their rules due to monetary incentives.
  - ramesh31 5y ago
    >The problem is space doesn’t belong to anyone in particular. Who’s going to enforce it? I suppose the UN could, but, unfortunately, it’s completely powerless. Countries can just tax them at launch time based on the payload
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    "Join in, or the debris we take down might be your satellite."
  - BurningFrog 5y ago
    The UN is also mostly rather useless... One model is that certain orbits do become owned by some major power or private company. When you own certain orbits, it's your responsibility to keep them clean.
  - MichaelZuo 5y ago
    There are actually binding, UN treaties actually on outer space, one specifically on outer space debris. The liability for any debris that hits something else in space, or hits something on Earth, lies with the launching nation of said debris. This has already occurred and been resolved once, when a USSR spy satellite hit northern Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954 I imagine if an incident were to occur and the launching nation didn’t compensate the UN security council could ultimately enforce some kind of punishment. If one of the permanent five refused, since all five are satellite launching nations, or closely tied (UK) to a satellite launching nation, there will be immense pressure to settle up.
paulsutter 5y ago
The owner of a satellite under threat from some specific debris would have a strong incentive to pay. I'm surprised if the data is good enough to detect this, but otherwise its hard to imagine the business model. Love to hear more from the founders https://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/ https://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/
- tpierceturion 5y ago
  Good points we have been thinking about ourselves for a long time. The business model for orbital debris removal doesn't really exist at this point. We are starting with a solution that can provide satellite services and using that to create a foundation for a economic removal of large space-debris objects. Once the solution is available with data demonstrating costs - government bodies will likely come on board.
rwesterdahl 5y ago
Right now NO ONE. Crazy right? Well not really. If you forced people (satellite owners) to pay for someone to deorbit their stuff, before an affordable service exists, that'd be a quick way to put a major damper on the booming space economy. It is crucial to develop the technology quickly, and do so with a system that is affordable. Only after this will regulators be willing to move towards enforcing more strict policies for deorbiting your satellite if it dies. Until then, anyone need an orbit modification? :)
- lkbm 5y ago
  As I understand it, the majority of junk is 1. 480 million copper pins the US military put into orbit[0] and 2. 150k pieces of junk from the Chinese anti-satellite weapon test/demonstration[1]. So if we're going to charge someone for this, first and foremost are the US and Chinese militaries. Who's going to make them pay up? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_missile_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_mi...
  - aikinai 5y ago
    Thanks for linking to the interesting story, but it doesn’t agree with your comment. Wikipedia says there are only 36 clumps of needles left in orbit.
    - lkbm 5y ago
      Good catch. I didn't fully reread it before posting. I was also unsure if the individual needles were still around, but the article says they'd have decayed after ~3 years, so it's just those few clumps that are relevant.
    - jcun4128 5y ago
      that is cool "artificial ionosphere"
    - gridspy 5y ago
cbanek 5y ago
As terrible and backward as this sounds, I wonder if who wants to take the spot next needs to clean up after the first person. Given the limited number of available slots for certain orbits like geosync, it might make sense to send something else up to push the previous satellite out to the dead orbit (if it failed to get there itself). In this way you're kind of more buying the "land" and have to demolish the previous house.
- dreamcompiler 5y ago
  Geosync satellites don't really contribute directly to the main debris problem; they are too far out and there are too few of them and when they end their service life they (usually) have enough fuel left to push themselves further out to make room for the next satellite. The big debris problem is much closer to the earth in the cloud of crap between LEO and MEO.

ericb 5y ago

I think the smart move is to put a regulatory requirement to either fund removal via a satellite tax, prepayment, or require a 1-up-1-down trade. Selling a satellite cleanup credit like companies do with carbon or EV credits could work.

f6v 5y ago
The problem is space doesn’t belong to anyone in particular. Who’s going to enforce it? I suppose the UN could, but, unfortunately, it’s completely powerless.
- tpierceturion 5y ago
  Good point. It's a lot like international waters at this point but there is a very interesting aspect regarding this. Currently the FCC is the primary governing body in the space realm and requires all international satellites to abide by their rules in order to access the US telecommunications market. This translated to ~90% of all satellites following their rules due to monetary incentives.
- ramesh31 5y ago
  >The problem is space doesn’t belong to anyone in particular. Who’s going to enforce it? I suppose the UN could, but, unfortunately, it’s completely powerless. Countries can just tax them at launch time based on the payload
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  "Join in, or the debris we take down might be your satellite."
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  The UN is also mostly rather useless... One model is that certain orbits do become owned by some major power or private company. When you own certain orbits, it's your responsibility to keep them clean.
- MichaelZuo 5y ago
  There are actually binding, UN treaties actually on outer space, one specifically on outer space debris. The liability for any debris that hits something else in space, or hits something on Earth, lies with the launching nation of said debris. This has already occurred and been resolved once, when a USSR spy satellite hit northern Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954 I imagine if an incident were to occur and the launching nation didn’t compensate the UN security council could ultimately enforce some kind of punishment. If one of the permanent five refused, since all five are satellite launching nations, or closely tied (UK) to a satellite launching nation, there will be immense pressure to settle up.

paulsutter 5y ago

The owner of a satellite under threat from some specific debris would have a strong incentive to pay. I'm surprised if the data is good enough to detect this, but otherwise its hard to imagine the business model. Love to hear more from the founders https://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/ https://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/

tpierceturion 5y ago
Good points we have been thinking about ourselves for a long time. The business model for orbital debris removal doesn't really exist at this point. We are starting with a solution that can provide satellite services and using that to create a foundation for a economic removal of large space-debris objects. Once the solution is available with data demonstrating costs - government bodies will likely come on board.

rwesterdahl 5y ago

Right now NO ONE. Crazy right? Well not really. If you forced people (satellite owners) to pay for someone to deorbit their stuff, before an affordable service exists, that'd be a quick way to put a major damper on the booming space economy. It is crucial to develop the technology quickly, and do so with a system that is affordable. Only after this will regulators be willing to move towards enforcing more strict policies for deorbiting your satellite if it dies. Until then, anyone need an orbit modification? :)

lkbm 5y ago
As I understand it, the majority of junk is 1. 480 million copper pins the US military put into orbit[0] and 2. 150k pieces of junk from the Chinese anti-satellite weapon test/demonstration[1]. So if we're going to charge someone for this, first and foremost are the US and Chinese militaries. Who's going to make them pay up? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_West_Ford [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_missile_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_mi...
- aikinai 5y ago
  Thanks for linking to the interesting story, but it doesn’t agree with your comment. Wikipedia says there are only 36 clumps of needles left in orbit.
  - lkbm 5y ago
    Good catch. I didn't fully reread it before posting. I was also unsure if the individual needles were still around, but the article says they'd have decayed after ~3 years, so it's just those few clumps that are relevant.
  - jcun4128 5y ago
    that is cool "artificial ionosphere"
  - gridspy 5y ago

cbanek 5y ago

As terrible and backward as this sounds, I wonder if who wants to take the spot next needs to clean up after the first person. Given the limited number of available slots for certain orbits like geosync, it might make sense to send something else up to push the previous satellite out to the dead orbit (if it failed to get there itself). In this way you're kind of more buying the "land" and have to demolish the previous house.

dreamcompiler 5y ago
Geosync satellites don't really contribute directly to the main debris problem; they are too far out and there are too few of them and when they end their service life they (usually) have enough fuel left to push themselves further out to make room for the next satellite. The big debris problem is much closer to the earth in the cloud of crap between LEO and MEO.