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So far every comment here is talking about safety of flight, which is not the issue. It's not about safety. The FAA didn't make this rule. The FCC did, becaus

by _moof 5y ago

So far every comment here is talking about safety of flight, which is not the issue. It's not about safety. The FAA didn't make this rule. The FCC did, because the cell networks weren't designed for thousands of airborne handsets moving at 500 knots. "Cell phone systems depend on frequency reuse, which allows for a dramatic increase in the number of customers that can be served within a geographic area on a limited amount of radio spectrum, and operating a phone at an altitude may violate the fundamental assumptions that allow channel reuse to work."

aeternum 5y ago
This isn't completely true, the FAA does have this rule: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b8db9ae6ed5c2d88cdcc5ea6411caff7&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_121&rgn=div8 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b8db9ae6ed5c2d88cd... And this makes it risky for airlines to allow because how can the operator determine that every different electronic device will not cause interference? I've flown small planes where my phone absolutely did cause a burst of noticeable radio interference every few seconds with LTE enabled, but those avionics likely have much less shielding than the commercial planes. Simple fix is to just turn on airplane mode or disable LTE.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  I personally like to put it in the negative. Let's set aside for a moment FAA, FCC, IATA, etc. The airline has a several million dollars/euro worth aircraft to lose in case of a crash. The insurance has many more millions to pay. If I were them and if I suspected that having phones or smartphones switched on and/or used during flight might in 0.00001% of cases cause a crash, my policy would be to frisk all passengers and take all their electronic devices in custody before boarding. Since this is not done, they (airline and insurance) must be pretty sure that the devices (and their use) are not dangerous for flight safety.
  - CobrastanJorji 5y ago
    Say we expect a fatal accident to cost an airline $1 billion in lost equipment, training, loss of business, etc. The average cost of leaving cellphones on per flight is 0.0000001*$1,000,000,000 or $100. Frisking passengers and taking their phones costs more than $100 per flight, so airlines wouldn't do it.
    - bbulkow 5y ago
      Don't forget the lost business because you will force business travelers to check bags. Literally everyone would have to check a bag, so you can't charge extra for it. And, no mobile boarding passes. And no move to bring-your-own-screen entertainment.
    - jaclaz 5y ago
      Yep, but they are still checking if you don't happen by chance to have with you a bomb (or actually even a pair of tiny scissors or a small cutter). While the bomb might be a chance greater than 0.00001%, the scissors should be far less dangerous.
      - CobrastanJorji 5y ago
        That's the government. Their goal is to convince you that the government is doing something to make you safe. To accomplish that, they run big, obvious security screenings. The airlines, left to their own devices, wouldn't bother.
- AnthonyUK 5y ago
  Ex-avionics engineer here. If there was a risk to the aircraft, do you think that safety point would be left to the passenger to turn off the device? Of course not so if there was any risk at all of them being used they would not have been allowed on the aircraft.
  - aeternum 5y ago
    Agreed, I'm not claiming there is any real safety risk. The issue is that FAA rule requires the operator to determine that any allowed electronic device does not cause interference. It clearly places the burden of proof on the airline operator, that's a pretty high bar by some interpretations.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- _moof 5y ago
  (I'm a CFI.) 91.21 is irrelevant. The FCC specifically forbids the use of cell phones aboard aircraft, and the FAA doesn't have the power to overrule the FCC in matters of radio interference. The FAA has no rule, and cannot make a rule, that in any way allows the operation of cell phones aboard aircraft as long as the FCC forbids it.
romwell 5y ago
I'd say, at this point, it's not about FCC rules either. The planes are already filled to the max with humans like cans of sardines. And it seems like most of these humans are perfectly OK with giving up their right to yap on the phone if that means their neighbor will lose it too. "WE NOW ENCOURAGE INFLIGHT PHONE CONVERSATIONS!" is not a message the airlines would want to send. It's a tricky balance. Everyone knows the rule is not enforced, but your seat neighbor can tell on you (especially if you're annoying), so people are incentivized to behave. Not so much on trains, btw. (Also, FWIW the FAA rule leaves it to airlines to decide when and whether to apply it).
- _moof 5y ago
  The FAA rule you're referring to, 14 CFR 91.21, has no relation to the FCC rule. The FAA cannot authorize the use of cell phones aboard aircraft as long as the FCC forbids it. It's not the FAA's jurisdiction.
throw0101a 5y ago
The vast majority of accidents occur during the takeoff, approach, and landing phases of flight: * https://accidentstats.airbus.com/statistics/accident-by-flight-phase https://accidentstats.airbus.com/statistics/accident-by-flig... Planes are certified so that a fully loaded plane can be evacuated in less that 90 seconds: * https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Emergency_Evacuation_on_Land#Certification https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Emergency_Evacuation_on_... During those phases, if an emergency occurs, people should not have their heads in a screen. The configuration of all seats and trays should be that if an incident occurs everyone is prepped to evacuate ASAP. The fewer distractions there are the better IMHO.

by _moof 5y ago

aeternum 5y ago

This isn't completely true, the FAA does have this rule: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b8db9ae6ed5c2d88cdcc5ea6411caff7&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_121&rgn=div8 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b8db9ae6ed5c2d88cd... And this makes it risky for airlines to allow because how can the operator determine that every different electronic device will not cause interference? I've flown small planes where my phone absolutely did cause a burst of noticeable radio interference every few seconds with LTE enabled, but those avionics likely have much less shielding than the commercial planes. Simple fix is to just turn on airplane mode or disable LTE.

jaclaz 5y ago
I personally like to put it in the negative. Let's set aside for a moment FAA, FCC, IATA, etc. The airline has a several million dollars/euro worth aircraft to lose in case of a crash. The insurance has many more millions to pay. If I were them and if I suspected that having phones or smartphones switched on and/or used during flight might in 0.00001% of cases cause a crash, my policy would be to frisk all passengers and take all their electronic devices in custody before boarding. Since this is not done, they (airline and insurance) must be pretty sure that the devices (and their use) are not dangerous for flight safety.
- CobrastanJorji 5y ago
  Say we expect a fatal accident to cost an airline $1 billion in lost equipment, training, loss of business, etc. The average cost of leaving cellphones on per flight is 0.0000001*$1,000,000,000 or $100. Frisking passengers and taking their phones costs more than $100 per flight, so airlines wouldn't do it.
  - bbulkow 5y ago
    Don't forget the lost business because you will force business travelers to check bags. Literally everyone would have to check a bag, so you can't charge extra for it. And, no mobile boarding passes. And no move to bring-your-own-screen entertainment.
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    Yep, but they are still checking if you don't happen by chance to have with you a bomb (or actually even a pair of tiny scissors or a small cutter). While the bomb might be a chance greater than 0.00001%, the scissors should be far less dangerous.
    - CobrastanJorji 5y ago
      That's the government. Their goal is to convince you that the government is doing something to make you safe. To accomplish that, they run big, obvious security screenings. The airlines, left to their own devices, wouldn't bother.
AnthonyUK 5y ago
Ex-avionics engineer here. If there was a risk to the aircraft, do you think that safety point would be left to the passenger to turn off the device? Of course not so if there was any risk at all of them being used they would not have been allowed on the aircraft.
- aeternum 5y ago
  Agreed, I'm not claiming there is any real safety risk. The issue is that FAA rule requires the operator to determine that any allowed electronic device does not cause interference. It clearly places the burden of proof on the airline operator, that's a pretty high bar by some interpretations.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
_moof 5y ago
(I'm a CFI.) 91.21 is irrelevant. The FCC specifically forbids the use of cell phones aboard aircraft, and the FAA doesn't have the power to overrule the FCC in matters of radio interference. The FAA has no rule, and cannot make a rule, that in any way allows the operation of cell phones aboard aircraft as long as the FCC forbids it.

romwell 5y ago

I'd say, at this point, it's not about FCC rules either. The planes are already filled to the max with humans like cans of sardines. And it seems like most of these humans are perfectly OK with giving up their right to yap on the phone if that means their neighbor will lose it too. "WE NOW ENCOURAGE INFLIGHT PHONE CONVERSATIONS!" is not a message the airlines would want to send. It's a tricky balance. Everyone knows the rule is not enforced, but your seat neighbor can tell on you (especially if you're annoying), so people are incentivized to behave. Not so much on trains, btw. (Also, FWIW the FAA rule leaves it to airlines to decide when and whether to apply it).

_moof 5y ago
The FAA rule you're referring to, 14 CFR 91.21, has no relation to the FCC rule. The FAA cannot authorize the use of cell phones aboard aircraft as long as the FCC forbids it. It's not the FAA's jurisdiction.

throw0101a 5y ago

The vast majority of accidents occur during the takeoff, approach, and landing phases of flight: * https://accidentstats.airbus.com/statistics/accident-by-flight-phase https://accidentstats.airbus.com/statistics/accident-by-flig... Planes are certified so that a fully loaded plane can be evacuated in less that 90 seconds: * https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Emergency_Evacuation_on_Land#Certification https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Emergency_Evacuation_on_... During those phases, if an emergency occurs, people should not have their heads in a screen. The configuration of all seats and trays should be that if an incident occurs everyone is prepped to evacuate ASAP. The fewer distractions there are the better IMHO.