4 ms·

I like MMR, but like many people in that genre these over-simplified calculations only really work for a very narrow set of circumstances. What happens if you

I like MMR, but like many people in that genre these over-simplified calculations only really work for a very narrow set of circumstances. What happens if you want to buy a condo in a competitive market that requires a 200k downpayment? Or have a medium-sized wedding? Or have two kids in day-care? I understand that the FIRE response would be that you don't _have_ to buy into all that stuff, but saying that it's just a little algebra and some simple assumptions is fantasy unless you want to live like a single 24 year old your whole life.

tejohnso 5y ago
> unless you want to live like a single 24 year old your whole life. Controlling expenses and living a humble life style is pretty much the opposite of living like a single 24 year old. At least for me and most of the single 24 year olds I knew back then. It takes wisdom and maturity to realize that you don't need all that stuff. And if you can find a partner with the same outlook, you can certainly avoid spending tens of thousands on a wedding, or buying a condo in a competitive market. And there should be no need for day care if you're retired.
- showerst 5y ago
  > It takes wisdom and maturity to realize that you don't need all that stuff This is _exactly_ what I take issue with. Look, "live below your means and be thoughtful about what spending will make you happier" is great advice. So is "plan for a future where you don't have to work". "Get a high paying remote job from a young age with no student loans, move somewhere cheap, actually find a partner there, don't dare find someone that makes teacher or non-professional salary or has health problems or student loans, wait until you're retired at 38 to have children, don't dare have kids with health problems or special needs, and lecture everyone else about how easy it is." is perhaps not the wise and mature advice you think it is. I'm just the right age (37) to have grown up alongside the FIRE thing. I have a number of friends who tried it, some of them to the point of being smarmy about it. 100% of them hit late twenties and realized that the combo of "making a high income while having very low expenses" involves significant trade-offs, and is super hard to keep up. All of my friends eventually abandoned it, but I don't think that's the rule. Describing FIRE as easy and saying that anyone who fails to do it is somehow less wise or immature is nonsense peddled by a bunch of people who retired early by writing "how to get retire early" blogs.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    I suspect the people who are able to keep a tight reign on their spending do so for its own sake. They get some satisfaction from it before they even start thinking about retirement.
    - mvp 5y ago
      To some people, the pain of letting the money go is greater than the perceived benefit of the product/service they get in return for the money, most of the time. You can imagine such people accumulating money all their life. For them, FIRE would be a very attractive proposition.
  - hahamrfunnyguy 5y ago
    I've always been thoughtful about my spending. I got married 12 years ago and worked while my wife went to school full time. About 10 years ago, I discovered the MMM blog and started making a concerted effort achieve financial independence. I am just about there now. For me, I didn't feel like there were many trade-offs. The key take-away is prioritizing value and figuring out what brings you joy in life. By doing this, I was able to eliminate a lot of unnecessary spending. I don't feel like I ever missed out on anything.
  - tejohnso 5y ago
    > Describing FIRE as easy and saying that anyone who fails to do it is somehow less wise or immature is nonsense peddled by a bunch of people who retired early by writing "how to get retire early" blogs. I haven't heard anyone claiming it's easy or that any failure to do it is due to a lack of wisdom or maturity. I think wisdom and maturity are required, but that's not all that is required. There's also a fair amount of discipline, and alignment with the tradeoffs, plus a good helping of privilege and luck. > "Get a high paying remote job from a young age with no student loans, move somewhere cheap, actually find a partner there, don't dare find someone that makes teacher or non-professional salary or has health problems or student loans, wait until you're retired at 38 to have children, don't dare have kids with health problems or special needs, and lecture everyone else about how easy it is." is perhaps not the wise and mature advice you think it is. That's not even close to what I claimed required wisdom and maturity to realize.
bloaf 5y ago
> What happens if you want to buy a condo in a competitive market that requires a 200k downpayment? Or have a medium-sized wedding? Or have two kids in day-care? If you mean after you retire, you'd plan for those things within your 4% swr budget just like you would if you were making a salary. If you mean before, then it depends on whether you're planning on getting married annually for the rest of your life, or if it is a one time expense. If it is a one time expense, I'm sure everyone here is capable of doing the math to figure out how much a large one-time expense will delay your retirement. (hint: it is one-time expense / earnings) If it is recurring, then the math still applies.

tejohnso 5y ago

> unless you want to live like a single 24 year old your whole life. Controlling expenses and living a humble life style is pretty much the opposite of living like a single 24 year old. At least for me and most of the single 24 year olds I knew back then. It takes wisdom and maturity to realize that you don't need all that stuff. And if you can find a partner with the same outlook, you can certainly avoid spending tens of thousands on a wedding, or buying a condo in a competitive market. And there should be no need for day care if you're retired.

showerst 5y ago
> It takes wisdom and maturity to realize that you don't need all that stuff This is _exactly_ what I take issue with. Look, "live below your means and be thoughtful about what spending will make you happier" is great advice. So is "plan for a future where you don't have to work". "Get a high paying remote job from a young age with no student loans, move somewhere cheap, actually find a partner there, don't dare find someone that makes teacher or non-professional salary or has health problems or student loans, wait until you're retired at 38 to have children, don't dare have kids with health problems or special needs, and lecture everyone else about how easy it is." is perhaps not the wise and mature advice you think it is. I'm just the right age (37) to have grown up alongside the FIRE thing. I have a number of friends who tried it, some of them to the point of being smarmy about it. 100% of them hit late twenties and realized that the combo of "making a high income while having very low expenses" involves significant trade-offs, and is super hard to keep up. All of my friends eventually abandoned it, but I don't think that's the rule. Describing FIRE as easy and saying that anyone who fails to do it is somehow less wise or immature is nonsense peddled by a bunch of people who retired early by writing "how to get retire early" blogs.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  I suspect the people who are able to keep a tight reign on their spending do so for its own sake. They get some satisfaction from it before they even start thinking about retirement.
  - mvp 5y ago
    To some people, the pain of letting the money go is greater than the perceived benefit of the product/service they get in return for the money, most of the time. You can imagine such people accumulating money all their life. For them, FIRE would be a very attractive proposition.
- hahamrfunnyguy 5y ago
  I've always been thoughtful about my spending. I got married 12 years ago and worked while my wife went to school full time. About 10 years ago, I discovered the MMM blog and started making a concerted effort achieve financial independence. I am just about there now. For me, I didn't feel like there were many trade-offs. The key take-away is prioritizing value and figuring out what brings you joy in life. By doing this, I was able to eliminate a lot of unnecessary spending. I don't feel like I ever missed out on anything.
- tejohnso 5y ago
  > Describing FIRE as easy and saying that anyone who fails to do it is somehow less wise or immature is nonsense peddled by a bunch of people who retired early by writing "how to get retire early" blogs. I haven't heard anyone claiming it's easy or that any failure to do it is due to a lack of wisdom or maturity. I think wisdom and maturity are required, but that's not all that is required. There's also a fair amount of discipline, and alignment with the tradeoffs, plus a good helping of privilege and luck. > "Get a high paying remote job from a young age with no student loans, move somewhere cheap, actually find a partner there, don't dare find someone that makes teacher or non-professional salary or has health problems or student loans, wait until you're retired at 38 to have children, don't dare have kids with health problems or special needs, and lecture everyone else about how easy it is." is perhaps not the wise and mature advice you think it is. That's not even close to what I claimed required wisdom and maturity to realize.

bloaf 5y ago

> What happens if you want to buy a condo in a competitive market that requires a 200k downpayment? Or have a medium-sized wedding? Or have two kids in day-care? If you mean after you retire, you'd plan for those things within your 4% swr budget just like you would if you were making a salary. If you mean before, then it depends on whether you're planning on getting married annually for the rest of your life, or if it is a one time expense. If it is a one time expense, I'm sure everyone here is capable of doing the math to figure out how much a large one-time expense will delay your retirement. (hint: it is one-time expense / earnings) If it is recurring, then the math still applies.