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To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason e

To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery But yes, Apple is great. Again, Apple is great. Apple good, good good good

BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
> To this date To this date. Tomorrow, though, no one knows. > I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. "I", "I", "I". It's not you. It's me. I don't care what you say you're going to do with it. I don't want to give you my email address to store in another database. I'm sure you're very nice, but sorry not sorry. > The only reason email is needed is for password recovery You don't need my email at all if I can use Apple ID. The fourth sentence on the page says "sending personalized emails" as if it's no big deal. I don't care what you think the purpose or value of your emails is. I don't want emails from any app unless it's a support response to an email I sent first.
- collaborative 5y ago
  Not objecting. I don't need email addresses for the case of AppleID users. 100% true I do need them for everyone else who comes from traditional signup However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it
  - yalogin 5y ago
    Forcing it on you is what gives their users the privacy assurance/functionality of using the app and not giving the apps their emails. They want you to redesign your app so that you don’t rely more n mail to provide functionality. It’s a good thing, even for you.
    - collaborative 5y ago
      I don't dispute that it is a good thing. I object to the method of implementing it by force I am an Apple customer as much as an iPhone user is. But Apple chooses to treat me as an employee, after having charged me (and paid me nothing). Do I have the right to be upset? Could they not have sweetened AppleID by encouraging users to ask devs to implement it or even by reducing our dev annual fee by some $? I think it would also have worked
      - Bud 5y ago
        I think you need to review what "by force" actually means.
      - elzbardico 5y ago
        You can remove the other third-party login options and offer only email+password. Part of the reason people pay the Apple premium (which is definitely a fact) is because of platform consistency. We are paying more so things are consistent, I expect to not being forced to use a google or facebook account, I expect to have a single place to manage my subscriptions. If I didn't like that, why in hell would I pay more to be in the apple ecosystem???
        collaborative 5y ago
        Here there is a conflict of interest. Who gets to choose to "expect" more? Arguably, I pay more $ to Apple than you (on top of the value I add). Let's see: 1 dev subscription 4 iPhones to test 2 iPads to test 2 macs to develop Why do you get to "expect" things from me, and why does Apple get to force me to serve you in a certain way that keeps changing over time and then threatens to hide my work if I don't comply? I don't know, it just doesn't seem fair. I am happy to work for free because I like what I do, but then being told to do things or risk being banned is just too much for my taste I think I will just leave the App Store when my web version is finished. Too much trouble for nothing
        elzbardico 5y ago
  - pokot0 5y ago
    You don't want to understand. Apple users are happy that they forced you. They like the AppleID experience and nobody would care to implement it if they didn't force developers. I know it's frustrating for you, but this is the core of why Apple users stick to Apple. They decided to trust and share their data with one single company (Apple) instead of an overwhelming amount of small companies. And it's not just about data; Apple users trust Apple to design a competiting device and a refined user experience and they don't have to do the work for themselves. They just buy the next Apple device and they trust Apple to do the work for them. I know it's not for everyone, but if a subset of people like it and they decide to buy into it.... why are people getting mad? Apple is the result of what Apple users want. If you don't like them you can develop your app for Android users or whatever else you like.
    - InsomniacL 5y ago
      > Apple users are happy that they forced you. As an Apple user I'm not happy they forced this. It's manipulative forcing even more platform lock-in for the average joe which empowers other anti-trust practices too. You're argument that an Apple user is happy at the point of use doesn't justify anti-trust behaviour which is to the overall detriment of people. Apple seem to get away with far too much just because they're 'Apple'. Imagine the mess we would be in if every auth provider had the same policy.
      - elzbardico 5y ago
        Your position would make sense if besides forcing the implementation of Apple Id, Apple forbade the use of any other authentication method. This is not the case. You can even offer google authentication in your app. You can also move to android and authenticate to the same app still using apple id, the developer can also offer the chance to link this existing account with another credential. So, there's absolutely no lock-in. And indeed most apple users are happy with that, as it gave me the choice not to have to keep using google or facebook authentication.
      - pokot0 5y ago
        I understand your anti-trust point and I agree to some extent. But this is not something you can blame on Apple. You need to go to your politicians. You can't expect a company to self-regulate its dominance position. In general I believe a much better way of dealing with this form of dominance is taxing the dominant companies agressively and use that money to fund open source competition.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - garblegarble 5y ago
    >However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it My understanding is that Apple only force you to include this if you provide other third-party login options. This is a consumer-friendly feature that Apple is forcing you to implement so that your users on Apple platforms can choose to use your app's one-click third party login functionality whist still retaining control about what personal data they share with you. Apple's platforms require a variety of consumer- and privacy-friendly features from developers who choose to release apps on them, and you could make your same argument against any of them (e.g. not tracking the user without their permission) That Apple does this and holds third-party developers to standards for privacy and consumer-friendliness is why I (and many others) use their platforms.
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Yes, It keeps app developers from forcing you to use google or facebook, giving you at least the option to use Apple Id, which frankly, for all practical purposes, is definitelly a lesser evil.
  - krustyburger 5y ago
    Right, except that your “problem” is also the relationship Apple has with its customers. You did nothing to build the trust and loyalty that you mock in your snarky write-up. Apple did, to the point that their users would prefer to trust them with their personal information over someone else (you). The tone of your whole piece is sophomoric- you essentially suggest that all of Apple’s customers are uninformed and lacking agency (unlike you). All of this because you could no longer automatically glom some people’s emails for whatever future use you dream up? I hope you realize how you’re coming off. Frankly, I wouldn’t be keen on you having my email. You might accuse me of “sitting on my butt” or worse if you decide I’m not a good customer or whatever.
    - collaborative 5y ago
      For what it's worth I'd like to apologize to anyone who identifies as an Apple user and has been offended by my tone. I intended to add a bit of humor but I know that perspective can make things feel a lot different Please replace every mention of "Apple user" with "Apple". It really is the only wrong party here
      - walls 5y ago
        You definitely nailed the tone you were going for, you're just not liking the response.
        collaborative 5y ago
        Nah, I just feel sorry for any Apple user out there that was offended by my words. It happens everywhere. I generally don't place a lot of importance on these things, but it's rude to make fun of people's (core) beliefs
- subhro 5y ago
  And in support of this comment, Apple ID users DO have the option of sharing their email addresses if they want to. So, from the receiving end, if you see somerandomstring@appleid.apple.com as the email address, it should be pretty clear what your users want. Now you CAN choose to say, "I don't want those users", if they do not fit into your grand plan of things. Apple does forward emails, so you can even contact those users for your password recovery use case you mentioned in other comments. I think your problem is not the fact that you do not have an email ID, your problem is, your users have the option of pulling the carpet from under you.
jasode 5y ago
To this: >To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery And your other reply in the thread: >Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. [...] TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much. Some constructive criticism about your replies... You come across as tone deaf. Trust is not granted to you just because _you_ self-report that you're honest. Your comments will be perceived as another variation of, "Hey trust me, I'm an honest guy! Really!" If you're tired of people "trusting big tech" so much, why would that have anything to do with you being "small tech" (e.g. Javier Antons's small company Collaborative Groups)? The implicit cognitive consumer heuristic is not "He's a small unknown company -- therefore I trust him _more_ with my email address than a big company like Apple Inc." You're focused more on your needs from a perspective of a developer instead of a perspective of an untrusting user. That said, you definitely should remove Apple as an option if they make life as a developer not worth the time. EDIT to add a link that may help your public relations strategy: Fyi... your insistence on being perceived as trustworthy is a form of "countersignaling" and it makes people distrust your app. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling
- skuthus 5y ago
  To be fair, Apple users only care about privacy when it suits them - 5-6 years ago, it was not a priority of any apple user and many mocked non-apple people for caring about it. If apples handing it to you, it must be important, or so the thinking seems to go
  - sam0x17 5y ago
    It's also a facade as well. Notice that each time Cellebrite demonstrates that they can unlocked encrypted iphones, there isn't massive weeping and moaning in the Apple community, nor is there a mass exodus out of the ecosystem. Apple users only care about privacy if it happens to work. Once they lose it, they continue to be good little fanboys.
xondono 5y ago
And yet you ask your users to trust Apple and you and another developer for each app they use, I’d rather just trust one party, and have a single entity to complain to.
elzbardico 5y ago
If you are using Apple Id for authentication, why you need to have a password recovery functionality?
- collaborative 5y ago
  Password recovery is for all other authentication methods. Although there is a case where it still would be valid there: if a user signs up with AppleID but chooses to use an unmasked email address, and then logs out, and tries to log in again but this time forgets that they used AppleID and they try using normal sing-in, then Password reset would also work to reset their "password" (the definition of an AppleID user's password is a bit tricky here and don't want to write something that's too long)

BugsJustFindMe 5y ago

> To this date To this date. Tomorrow, though, no one knows. > I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. "I", "I", "I". It's not you. It's me. I don't care what you say you're going to do with it. I don't want to give you my email address to store in another database. I'm sure you're very nice, but sorry not sorry. > The only reason email is needed is for password recovery You don't need my email at all if I can use Apple ID. The fourth sentence on the page says "sending personalized emails" as if it's no big deal. I don't care what you think the purpose or value of your emails is. I don't want emails from any app unless it's a support response to an email I sent first.

collaborative 5y ago
Not objecting. I don't need email addresses for the case of AppleID users. 100% true I do need them for everyone else who comes from traditional signup However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it
- yalogin 5y ago
  Forcing it on you is what gives their users the privacy assurance/functionality of using the app and not giving the apps their emails. They want you to redesign your app so that you don’t rely more n mail to provide functionality. It’s a good thing, even for you.
  - collaborative 5y ago
    I don't dispute that it is a good thing. I object to the method of implementing it by force I am an Apple customer as much as an iPhone user is. But Apple chooses to treat me as an employee, after having charged me (and paid me nothing). Do I have the right to be upset? Could they not have sweetened AppleID by encouraging users to ask devs to implement it or even by reducing our dev annual fee by some $? I think it would also have worked
    - Bud 5y ago
      I think you need to review what "by force" actually means.
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      You can remove the other third-party login options and offer only email+password. Part of the reason people pay the Apple premium (which is definitely a fact) is because of platform consistency. We are paying more so things are consistent, I expect to not being forced to use a google or facebook account, I expect to have a single place to manage my subscriptions. If I didn't like that, why in hell would I pay more to be in the apple ecosystem???
      - collaborative 5y ago
        Here there is a conflict of interest. Who gets to choose to "expect" more? Arguably, I pay more $ to Apple than you (on top of the value I add). Let's see: 1 dev subscription 4 iPhones to test 2 iPads to test 2 macs to develop Why do you get to "expect" things from me, and why does Apple get to force me to serve you in a certain way that keeps changing over time and then threatens to hide my work if I don't comply? I don't know, it just doesn't seem fair. I am happy to work for free because I like what I do, but then being told to do things or risk being banned is just too much for my taste I think I will just leave the App Store when my web version is finished. Too much trouble for nothing
        elzbardico 5y ago
- pokot0 5y ago
  You don't want to understand. Apple users are happy that they forced you. They like the AppleID experience and nobody would care to implement it if they didn't force developers. I know it's frustrating for you, but this is the core of why Apple users stick to Apple. They decided to trust and share their data with one single company (Apple) instead of an overwhelming amount of small companies. And it's not just about data; Apple users trust Apple to design a competiting device and a refined user experience and they don't have to do the work for themselves. They just buy the next Apple device and they trust Apple to do the work for them. I know it's not for everyone, but if a subset of people like it and they decide to buy into it.... why are people getting mad? Apple is the result of what Apple users want. If you don't like them you can develop your app for Android users or whatever else you like.
  - InsomniacL 5y ago
    > Apple users are happy that they forced you. As an Apple user I'm not happy they forced this. It's manipulative forcing even more platform lock-in for the average joe which empowers other anti-trust practices too. You're argument that an Apple user is happy at the point of use doesn't justify anti-trust behaviour which is to the overall detriment of people. Apple seem to get away with far too much just because they're 'Apple'. Imagine the mess we would be in if every auth provider had the same policy.
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Your position would make sense if besides forcing the implementation of Apple Id, Apple forbade the use of any other authentication method. This is not the case. You can even offer google authentication in your app. You can also move to android and authenticate to the same app still using apple id, the developer can also offer the chance to link this existing account with another credential. So, there's absolutely no lock-in. And indeed most apple users are happy with that, as it gave me the choice not to have to keep using google or facebook authentication.
    - pokot0 5y ago
      I understand your anti-trust point and I agree to some extent. But this is not something you can blame on Apple. You need to go to your politicians. You can't expect a company to self-regulate its dominance position. In general I believe a much better way of dealing with this form of dominance is taxing the dominant companies agressively and use that money to fund open source competition.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- garblegarble 5y ago
  >However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it My understanding is that Apple only force you to include this if you provide other third-party login options. This is a consumer-friendly feature that Apple is forcing you to implement so that your users on Apple platforms can choose to use your app's one-click third party login functionality whist still retaining control about what personal data they share with you. Apple's platforms require a variety of consumer- and privacy-friendly features from developers who choose to release apps on them, and you could make your same argument against any of them (e.g. not tracking the user without their permission) That Apple does this and holds third-party developers to standards for privacy and consumer-friendliness is why I (and many others) use their platforms.
  - elzbardico 5y ago
    Yes, It keeps app developers from forcing you to use google or facebook, giving you at least the option to use Apple Id, which frankly, for all practical purposes, is definitelly a lesser evil.
- krustyburger 5y ago
  Right, except that your “problem” is also the relationship Apple has with its customers. You did nothing to build the trust and loyalty that you mock in your snarky write-up. Apple did, to the point that their users would prefer to trust them with their personal information over someone else (you). The tone of your whole piece is sophomoric- you essentially suggest that all of Apple’s customers are uninformed and lacking agency (unlike you). All of this because you could no longer automatically glom some people’s emails for whatever future use you dream up? I hope you realize how you’re coming off. Frankly, I wouldn’t be keen on you having my email. You might accuse me of “sitting on my butt” or worse if you decide I’m not a good customer or whatever.
  - collaborative 5y ago
    For what it's worth I'd like to apologize to anyone who identifies as an Apple user and has been offended by my tone. I intended to add a bit of humor but I know that perspective can make things feel a lot different Please replace every mention of "Apple user" with "Apple". It really is the only wrong party here
    - walls 5y ago
      You definitely nailed the tone you were going for, you're just not liking the response.
      - collaborative 5y ago
        Nah, I just feel sorry for any Apple user out there that was offended by my words. It happens everywhere. I generally don't place a lot of importance on these things, but it's rude to make fun of people's (core) beliefs
subhro 5y ago
And in support of this comment, Apple ID users DO have the option of sharing their email addresses if they want to. So, from the receiving end, if you see somerandomstring@appleid.apple.com as the email address, it should be pretty clear what your users want. Now you CAN choose to say, "I don't want those users", if they do not fit into your grand plan of things. Apple does forward emails, so you can even contact those users for your password recovery use case you mentioned in other comments. I think your problem is not the fact that you do not have an email ID, your problem is, your users have the option of pulling the carpet from under you.

jasode 5y ago

To this: >To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery And your other reply in the thread: >Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. [...] TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much. Some constructive criticism about your replies... You come across as tone deaf. Trust is not granted to you just because _you_ self-report that you're honest. Your comments will be perceived as another variation of, "Hey trust me, I'm an honest guy! Really!" If you're tired of people "trusting big tech" so much, why would that have anything to do with you being "small tech" (e.g. Javier Antons's small company Collaborative Groups)? The implicit cognitive consumer heuristic is not "He's a small unknown company -- therefore I trust him _more_ with my email address than a big company like Apple Inc." You're focused more on your needs from a perspective of a developer instead of a perspective of an untrusting user. That said, you definitely should remove Apple as an option if they make life as a developer not worth the time. EDIT to add a link that may help your public relations strategy: Fyi... your insistence on being perceived as trustworthy is a form of "countersignaling" and it makes people distrust your app. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling

skuthus 5y ago
To be fair, Apple users only care about privacy when it suits them - 5-6 years ago, it was not a priority of any apple user and many mocked non-apple people for caring about it. If apples handing it to you, it must be important, or so the thinking seems to go
- sam0x17 5y ago
  It's also a facade as well. Notice that each time Cellebrite demonstrates that they can unlocked encrypted iphones, there isn't massive weeping and moaning in the Apple community, nor is there a mass exodus out of the ecosystem. Apple users only care about privacy if it happens to work. Once they lose it, they continue to be good little fanboys.

xondono 5y ago

And yet you ask your users to trust Apple and you and another developer for each app they use, I’d rather just trust one party, and have a single entity to complain to.

elzbardico 5y ago

If you are using Apple Id for authentication, why you need to have a password recovery functionality?

collaborative 5y ago
Password recovery is for all other authentication methods. Although there is a case where it still would be valid there: if a user signs up with AppleID but chooses to use an unmasked email address, and then logs out, and tries to log in again but this time forgets that they used AppleID and they try using normal sing-in, then Password reset would also work to reset their "password" (the definition of an AppleID user's password is a bit tricky here and don't want to write something that's too long)