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This is a perfect example of why Sign in with Apple is so great: it hides my e-mail and real name from people like the author who are clearly intent on using th

This is a perfect example of why Sign in with Apple is so great: it hides my e-mail and real name from people like the author who are clearly intent on using this information to sell me stuff I don't want.

imwillofficial 5y ago
Exactly, they are totally cool with a Facebook login, but decry an Apple login. Incredible. Literally.
- collaborative 5y ago
  nah, I'm cool with both, so long as no one is forcing me to add them to my app. Which Apple is doing, so go figure
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    No nobody is forcing you to do anything. You want to be in the App Store, you go by Apple’s User respecting rules. I’m cool with that.
collaborative 5y ago
To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery But yes, Apple is great. Again, Apple is great. Apple good, good good good
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
  > To this date To this date. Tomorrow, though, no one knows. > I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. "I", "I", "I". It's not you. It's me. I don't care what you say you're going to do with it. I don't want to give you my email address to store in another database. I'm sure you're very nice, but sorry not sorry. > The only reason email is needed is for password recovery You don't need my email at all if I can use Apple ID. The fourth sentence on the page says "sending personalized emails" as if it's no big deal. I don't care what you think the purpose or value of your emails is. I don't want emails from any app unless it's a support response to an email I sent first.
  - collaborative 5y ago
    Not objecting. I don't need email addresses for the case of AppleID users. 100% true I do need them for everyone else who comes from traditional signup However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it
    - yalogin 5y ago
      Forcing it on you is what gives their users the privacy assurance/functionality of using the app and not giving the apps their emails. They want you to redesign your app so that you don’t rely more n mail to provide functionality. It’s a good thing, even for you.
      - collaborative 5y ago
        I don't dispute that it is a good thing. I object to the method of implementing it by force I am an Apple customer as much as an iPhone user is. But Apple chooses to treat me as an employee, after having charged me (and paid me nothing). Do I have the right to be upset? Could they not have sweetened AppleID by encouraging users to ask devs to implement it or even by reducing our dev annual fee by some $? I think it would also have worked
        Bud 5y ago
        I think you need to review what "by force" actually means.
        elzbardico 5y ago
        You can remove the other third-party login options and offer only email+password. Part of the reason people pay the Apple premium (which is definitely a fact) is because of platform consistency. We are paying more so things are consistent, I expect to not being forced to use a google or facebook account, I expect to have a single place to manage my subscriptions. If I didn't like that, why in hell would I pay more to be in the apple ecosystem???
- jasode 5y ago
  To this: >To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery And your other reply in the thread: >Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. [...] TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much. Some constructive criticism about your replies... You come across as tone deaf. Trust is not granted to you just because _you_ self-report that you're honest. Your comments will be perceived as another variation of, "Hey trust me, I'm an honest guy! Really!" If you're tired of people "trusting big tech" so much, why would that have anything to do with you being "small tech" (e.g. Javier Antons's small company Collaborative Groups)? The implicit cognitive consumer heuristic is not "He's a small unknown company -- therefore I trust him _more_ with my email address than a big company like Apple Inc." You're focused more on your needs from a perspective of a developer instead of a perspective of an untrusting user. That said, you definitely should remove Apple as an option if they make life as a developer not worth the time. EDIT to add a link that may help your public relations strategy: Fyi... your insistence on being perceived as trustworthy is a form of "countersignaling" and it makes people distrust your app. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling
  - skuthus 5y ago
    To be fair, Apple users only care about privacy when it suits them - 5-6 years ago, it was not a priority of any apple user and many mocked non-apple people for caring about it. If apples handing it to you, it must be important, or so the thinking seems to go
    - sam0x17 5y ago
      It's also a facade as well. Notice that each time Cellebrite demonstrates that they can unlocked encrypted iphones, there isn't massive weeping and moaning in the Apple community, nor is there a mass exodus out of the ecosystem. Apple users only care about privacy if it happens to work. Once they lose it, they continue to be good little fanboys.
- xondono 5y ago
  And yet you ask your users to trust Apple and you and another developer for each app they use, I’d rather just trust one party, and have a single entity to complain to.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  If you are using Apple Id for authentication, why you need to have a password recovery functionality?
  - collaborative 5y ago
    Password recovery is for all other authentication methods. Although there is a case where it still would be valid there: if a user signs up with AppleID but chooses to use an unmasked email address, and then logs out, and tries to log in again but this time forgets that they used AppleID and they try using normal sing-in, then Password reset would also work to reset their "password" (the definition of an AppleID user's password is a bit tricky here and don't want to write something that's too long)
wayneftw 5y ago
> ...people like the author who are clearly intent on using this information to sell me stuff I don't want. Where was that made clear? My best guess is when the author said: > We are denied customer interaction, freedom to offer any non-Apple payment methods, etc. For example, I am absolutely sure that Groups would have had loads of more IAPs had I been allowed to offer Paypal on top of Apple Pay and what not. Offering a non-Apple payment method is selling you stuff you don't want?
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
  > Where was that made clear? The post appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to cajole people into giving app developers access to their email inboxes as a general rule by throwing insults at Apple for daring to hide email addresses from app developers. Even if this person never tries to sell me things, that rule is clearly meant to enable other people to do so. It frames "sending personalized emails" as though: 1) The only reason to send personalized emails is for "offering alternative payment methods". 2) Sending personalized emails is no big deal. But both of those are wrong.
  - collaborative 5y ago
    Caught me. I thought I was close to getting away with this, but alas, you've found that I am a saboteur from the International Brigades of Devious Developers and all I am hoping for is for public opinion to change so I can get my fellow criminals more email addresses Now seriously, I have said time and time again that I have no issues with Apple ID. I have a problem with how Apple forced it on me. Not nice
    - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
      > I have a problem with how Apple forced it on me. Not nice Every single point you bring up is about you and not your users. All of your complaints in your post and in your comments in this thread ignore the fact that what Apple is doing is better for the humans on the other side from you. And your stinger at the end? > Apple users who logged into Groups via the app with Apple ID will need to create a second account. Am I hurting myself? Am I shooting myself in the foot? Probably. But this is war. You're not hurting Apple. At best you're hurting your users, but you're so focused on your own petty brigade that you don't see it or care. The war that you've just started is not against Apple but against the human users using Apple devices. They're the ones who would suffer from your decisions. Making the button uniform across domains so that it's instantly recognizeable is user-positive. Offering Apple ID as a sign-up option instead of making me give you my email address is user-positive. If you don't care about being user-positive, if you're going to vociferously argue against it, why should users trust you?
mikeryan 5y ago
It’s also the reason they had to make it mandatory. No one would use it otherwise. I use it all the time for the privacy it provides.
- CivBase 5y ago
  That's evidently not true. Plenty of apps, including the author's, use Google's and Facebook's auth solutions without being coerced into doing so. EDIT: Can someone explain how this is wrong?
  - notwedtm 5y ago
    The difference here is that neither Google nor Facebook require you to use them in most places.
    - CivBase 5y ago
      That's my point, though. mikeryan argued that if Apple didn't force devs to support their auth solution, devs would just ignore it. But both Google and Facebook have created similar solutions and have been very successful without forcing devs to support them. If you make something good that users want, devs will typically support it of their own accord. And to be clear, Apple's policy does not require all apps to support Apple ID - only those which support another SSO solution like Google's or Facebook's. A malicious dev who wants to collect user data has no incentive to support SSOs in the first place. By not supporting SSOs, they can still collect user emails and abuse them however they'd like.
    - mosselman 5y ago
      That is because the motivation is different. Google and Facebook allow you to profile your users and get their real identity. Apple only has upsides for users, not developers.
  - mikeryan 5y ago
    The point is that many developers would prefer to have a “real” email address. If you’re using Google or Facebook ads the email data point allows them to track you across apps and target advertising that data goes back into your personalized profiles. Apples solution of an anonymous email breaks this personalized tracking which is good for privacy concerned users but potentially “harmful” for app developers, particularly those that are ad supported. There are many who wouldn’t see the value in adding Apple Auth and may actually see it as harmful to their businesses model and chose not to implement it which would deprive users of that choice. This isn’t about a large section of app developers who just use social auth in a benign way, like the author, to ease app sign ups it’a about those that use social auth more insidiously to track users, frequently without their knowledge. There’s not a feasible way for Apple to enforce this selectively so used a heavy hand. I feel for author with respect to the button guidelines but as a privacy minded user I’m glad he’s being forced to add the option.
CivBase 5y ago
This comment is pointlessly accusatory and misses the whole point. The problem wasn't that the author couldn't access your precious email. The problem was that Apple used their power to force their auth solution onto the author, which means Apple has no incentive to make their solution good. It caused this developer enough grief that they intentionally removed support for Apple ID on other platforms as a small protest. Please do not accuse people of malicious intent without evidence. You can discuss the merits of Apple ID without being a jerk.
tibbetts 5y ago
I wish there were more established patterns around progressive disclosure of personal information. I want to use an app for a while before I start inviting them into my inbox and text messages.
- OJFord 5y ago
  Android (from v10 I think?) does that - deferring the request for permission X until it's actually used. No more giving Camera permission to an app just because it supports sharing photos, which you know you never want to do, or whatever. (Yes, this was possible beforehand by manually refusing specific permissions after granting all, or vice versa. But it could be unpredictable and cause app crashes etc.)

imwillofficial 5y ago

Exactly, they are totally cool with a Facebook login, but decry an Apple login. Incredible. Literally.

collaborative 5y ago
nah, I'm cool with both, so long as no one is forcing me to add them to my app. Which Apple is doing, so go figure
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  No nobody is forcing you to do anything. You want to be in the App Store, you go by Apple’s User respecting rules. I’m cool with that.

collaborative 5y ago

To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery But yes, Apple is great. Again, Apple is great. Apple good, good good good

BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
> To this date To this date. Tomorrow, though, no one knows. > I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. "I", "I", "I". It's not you. It's me. I don't care what you say you're going to do with it. I don't want to give you my email address to store in another database. I'm sure you're very nice, but sorry not sorry. > The only reason email is needed is for password recovery You don't need my email at all if I can use Apple ID. The fourth sentence on the page says "sending personalized emails" as if it's no big deal. I don't care what you think the purpose or value of your emails is. I don't want emails from any app unless it's a support response to an email I sent first.
- collaborative 5y ago
  Not objecting. I don't need email addresses for the case of AppleID users. 100% true I do need them for everyone else who comes from traditional signup However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it
  - yalogin 5y ago
    Forcing it on you is what gives their users the privacy assurance/functionality of using the app and not giving the apps their emails. They want you to redesign your app so that you don’t rely more n mail to provide functionality. It’s a good thing, even for you.
    - collaborative 5y ago
      I don't dispute that it is a good thing. I object to the method of implementing it by force I am an Apple customer as much as an iPhone user is. But Apple chooses to treat me as an employee, after having charged me (and paid me nothing). Do I have the right to be upset? Could they not have sweetened AppleID by encouraging users to ask devs to implement it or even by reducing our dev annual fee by some $? I think it would also have worked
      - Bud 5y ago
        I think you need to review what "by force" actually means.
      - elzbardico 5y ago
        You can remove the other third-party login options and offer only email+password. Part of the reason people pay the Apple premium (which is definitely a fact) is because of platform consistency. We are paying more so things are consistent, I expect to not being forced to use a google or facebook account, I expect to have a single place to manage my subscriptions. If I didn't like that, why in hell would I pay more to be in the apple ecosystem???
jasode 5y ago
To this: >To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery And your other reply in the thread: >Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. [...] TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much. Some constructive criticism about your replies... You come across as tone deaf. Trust is not granted to you just because _you_ self-report that you're honest. Your comments will be perceived as another variation of, "Hey trust me, I'm an honest guy! Really!" If you're tired of people "trusting big tech" so much, why would that have anything to do with you being "small tech" (e.g. Javier Antons's small company Collaborative Groups)? The implicit cognitive consumer heuristic is not "He's a small unknown company -- therefore I trust him _more_ with my email address than a big company like Apple Inc." You're focused more on your needs from a perspective of a developer instead of a perspective of an untrusting user. That said, you definitely should remove Apple as an option if they make life as a developer not worth the time. EDIT to add a link that may help your public relations strategy: Fyi... your insistence on being perceived as trustworthy is a form of "countersignaling" and it makes people distrust your app. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling
- skuthus 5y ago
  To be fair, Apple users only care about privacy when it suits them - 5-6 years ago, it was not a priority of any apple user and many mocked non-apple people for caring about it. If apples handing it to you, it must be important, or so the thinking seems to go
  - sam0x17 5y ago
    It's also a facade as well. Notice that each time Cellebrite demonstrates that they can unlocked encrypted iphones, there isn't massive weeping and moaning in the Apple community, nor is there a mass exodus out of the ecosystem. Apple users only care about privacy if it happens to work. Once they lose it, they continue to be good little fanboys.
xondono 5y ago
And yet you ask your users to trust Apple and you and another developer for each app they use, I’d rather just trust one party, and have a single entity to complain to.
elzbardico 5y ago
If you are using Apple Id for authentication, why you need to have a password recovery functionality?
- collaborative 5y ago
  Password recovery is for all other authentication methods. Although there is a case where it still would be valid there: if a user signs up with AppleID but chooses to use an unmasked email address, and then logs out, and tries to log in again but this time forgets that they used AppleID and they try using normal sing-in, then Password reset would also work to reset their "password" (the definition of an AppleID user's password is a bit tricky here and don't want to write something that's too long)

wayneftw 5y ago

> ...people like the author who are clearly intent on using this information to sell me stuff I don't want. Where was that made clear? My best guess is when the author said: > We are denied customer interaction, freedom to offer any non-Apple payment methods, etc. For example, I am absolutely sure that Groups would have had loads of more IAPs had I been allowed to offer Paypal on top of Apple Pay and what not. Offering a non-Apple payment method is selling you stuff you don't want?

BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
> Where was that made clear? The post appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to cajole people into giving app developers access to their email inboxes as a general rule by throwing insults at Apple for daring to hide email addresses from app developers. Even if this person never tries to sell me things, that rule is clearly meant to enable other people to do so. It frames "sending personalized emails" as though: 1) The only reason to send personalized emails is for "offering alternative payment methods". 2) Sending personalized emails is no big deal. But both of those are wrong.
- collaborative 5y ago
  Caught me. I thought I was close to getting away with this, but alas, you've found that I am a saboteur from the International Brigades of Devious Developers and all I am hoping for is for public opinion to change so I can get my fellow criminals more email addresses Now seriously, I have said time and time again that I have no issues with Apple ID. I have a problem with how Apple forced it on me. Not nice
  - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
    > I have a problem with how Apple forced it on me. Not nice Every single point you bring up is about you and not your users. All of your complaints in your post and in your comments in this thread ignore the fact that what Apple is doing is better for the humans on the other side from you. And your stinger at the end? > Apple users who logged into Groups via the app with Apple ID will need to create a second account. Am I hurting myself? Am I shooting myself in the foot? Probably. But this is war. You're not hurting Apple. At best you're hurting your users, but you're so focused on your own petty brigade that you don't see it or care. The war that you've just started is not against Apple but against the human users using Apple devices. They're the ones who would suffer from your decisions. Making the button uniform across domains so that it's instantly recognizeable is user-positive. Offering Apple ID as a sign-up option instead of making me give you my email address is user-positive. If you don't care about being user-positive, if you're going to vociferously argue against it, why should users trust you?

mikeryan 5y ago

It’s also the reason they had to make it mandatory. No one would use it otherwise. I use it all the time for the privacy it provides.

CivBase 5y ago
That's evidently not true. Plenty of apps, including the author's, use Google's and Facebook's auth solutions without being coerced into doing so. EDIT: Can someone explain how this is wrong?
- notwedtm 5y ago
  The difference here is that neither Google nor Facebook require you to use them in most places.
  - CivBase 5y ago
    That's my point, though. mikeryan argued that if Apple didn't force devs to support their auth solution, devs would just ignore it. But both Google and Facebook have created similar solutions and have been very successful without forcing devs to support them. If you make something good that users want, devs will typically support it of their own accord. And to be clear, Apple's policy does not require all apps to support Apple ID - only those which support another SSO solution like Google's or Facebook's. A malicious dev who wants to collect user data has no incentive to support SSOs in the first place. By not supporting SSOs, they can still collect user emails and abuse them however they'd like.
  - mosselman 5y ago
    That is because the motivation is different. Google and Facebook allow you to profile your users and get their real identity. Apple only has upsides for users, not developers.
- mikeryan 5y ago
  The point is that many developers would prefer to have a “real” email address. If you’re using Google or Facebook ads the email data point allows them to track you across apps and target advertising that data goes back into your personalized profiles. Apples solution of an anonymous email breaks this personalized tracking which is good for privacy concerned users but potentially “harmful” for app developers, particularly those that are ad supported. There are many who wouldn’t see the value in adding Apple Auth and may actually see it as harmful to their businesses model and chose not to implement it which would deprive users of that choice. This isn’t about a large section of app developers who just use social auth in a benign way, like the author, to ease app sign ups it’a about those that use social auth more insidiously to track users, frequently without their knowledge. There’s not a feasible way for Apple to enforce this selectively so used a heavy hand. I feel for author with respect to the button guidelines but as a privacy minded user I’m glad he’s being forced to add the option.

CivBase 5y ago

This comment is pointlessly accusatory and misses the whole point. The problem wasn't that the author couldn't access your precious email. The problem was that Apple used their power to force their auth solution onto the author, which means Apple has no incentive to make their solution good. It caused this developer enough grief that they intentionally removed support for Apple ID on other platforms as a small protest. Please do not accuse people of malicious intent without evidence. You can discuss the merits of Apple ID without being a jerk.

tibbetts 5y ago

I wish there were more established patterns around progressive disclosure of personal information. I want to use an app for a while before I start inviting them into my inbox and text messages.

OJFord 5y ago
Android (from v10 I think?) does that - deferring the request for permission X until it's actually used. No more giving Camera permission to an app just because it supports sharing photos, which you know you never want to do, or whatever. (Yes, this was possible beforehand by manually refusing specific permissions after granting all, or vice versa. But it could be unpredictable and cause app crashes etc.)