5 ms·

It's great that brand-new EVs are getting cheaper. Recall aside, a used Chevy Bolt is a much better value. 15-18k USD for 240 mile range, DC "fast" charging (50

It's great that brand-new EVs are getting cheaper. Recall aside, a used Chevy Bolt is a much better value. 15-18k USD for 240 mile range, DC "fast" charging (50kV).

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
If you want "value" ICE subcompact hatches are still going to blow both the bolt and the leaf out of the water at any price point. The purchase price differential is just too big to make up on any reasonable timeline. The amount of driving you'd need to to do make back the difference in gas is beyond what these small EVs can do without unreasonable amounts of mid-trip charging. You pretty much need a weird use case with really short trips, a little bit of regulatory favoritism and extra cheap charging in order to make these small EVs work out on a pure cost basis.
- nolroz 5y ago
  Do you know of any "sub compact hatches" that stand it out particularly? I'm not familiar with the kind of car that refers to.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Mitsubishi Mirage, Chevy Spark, Kia Rio, etc.
    - 0x000000001 5y ago
      Kia Rio is #1 for fatalities. I've owned one, they're terrible cars. Drove one from Chicago to Seattle and back. Gotta crank the music to max to drown out the road and engine noise. It's a nightmare on wheels
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        Let me tell you about this car called the Spark EV. Being EV doesn't make it not a Spark... Don't get me wrong, these cars are fine cars and go from A to B just like the rest of them but the HN class of consumer who generally poo-poos anything that isn't Toyota Honda, Volvo or Tesla will find reasons to dislike them.
- panda888888 5y ago
  That's not necessarily true in the used market, although it depends on where you live. Due to how the tax credits work, EVs depreciate precipitously. One the west coast, used EVs are often cheaper than used ICE cars. You're right that range for used EVs is a significant issue, but with EVs being cheaper, the "make back the difference in gas" argument no longer holds. Here's an example of a used 2018 Nissan Leaf (https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/d/renton-2018-nissan-leaf-sv/7356686079.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/d/renton-2018-nissan-...) for $20k, which ends up being $5k cheaper than a similar 2019 honda civic hatchback (https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/ctd/d/puyallup-2019-honda-civic-ex-fwd/7351019465.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/ctd/d/puyallup-2019-honda...). Hondas are better cars than Nissans, but it's clear that the price gap between EVs and ICE cars has narrowed considerably, to the point that it has basically disappeared. As another example, you can buy a 2016 Chevy Spark EV for $6k, and the car will have under 50k miles. (Example: https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/d/hillsboro-2016-chevy-spark-ev-all/7349290218.html https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/d/hillsboro-2016-che...). You'd be hard pressed to find a 2015 ICE hatchback with under 50,000 miles at that same $6k price.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    If you are buying an upscale commuter car to park beside your spouse's 4Runner what you are saying is absolutely true. A Leaf or Bolt is cheaper than the Civics and Camrys that typically adorn the driveways of good school districts. If you are mucking about lower in the market ICE is still cheaper. A Mitsubishi Mirage MSRP's for less than the used Leaf costs. ~5-8yo Kia Rios and Souls (and plenty of sedans) are everywhere for a little more or less than the Spark (which is a unicorn) depending on age/miles. The spark EV is a great deal if you need a stripped down urban runabout. It's an outlier and they aren't exactly readily available used since they were a compliance car with a set of attributes that make the high class consumers that typically buy EVs turn and run. Go sit in any spark. It will be clear why that one is $6k. There is a reason the dealer is advertising it as something that you buy for a teenager. There is a reason someone only put 50k on it in 6yr. If you need transportation and have that much money there are better ways to spend it unless you are very hung up on miles.

It's great that brand-new EVs are getting cheaper. Recall aside, a used Chevy Bolt is a much better value. 15-18k USD for 240 mile range, DC "fast" charging (50kV).

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

If you want "value" ICE subcompact hatches are still going to blow both the bolt and the leaf out of the water at any price point. The purchase price differential is just too big to make up on any reasonable timeline. The amount of driving you'd need to to do make back the difference in gas is beyond what these small EVs can do without unreasonable amounts of mid-trip charging. You pretty much need a weird use case with really short trips, a little bit of regulatory favoritism and extra cheap charging in order to make these small EVs work out on a pure cost basis.

nolroz 5y ago
Do you know of any "sub compact hatches" that stand it out particularly? I'm not familiar with the kind of car that refers to.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Mitsubishi Mirage, Chevy Spark, Kia Rio, etc.
  - 0x000000001 5y ago
    Kia Rio is #1 for fatalities. I've owned one, they're terrible cars. Drove one from Chicago to Seattle and back. Gotta crank the music to max to drown out the road and engine noise. It's a nightmare on wheels
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      Let me tell you about this car called the Spark EV. Being EV doesn't make it not a Spark... Don't get me wrong, these cars are fine cars and go from A to B just like the rest of them but the HN class of consumer who generally poo-poos anything that isn't Toyota Honda, Volvo or Tesla will find reasons to dislike them.
panda888888 5y ago
That's not necessarily true in the used market, although it depends on where you live. Due to how the tax credits work, EVs depreciate precipitously. One the west coast, used EVs are often cheaper than used ICE cars. You're right that range for used EVs is a significant issue, but with EVs being cheaper, the "make back the difference in gas" argument no longer holds. Here's an example of a used 2018 Nissan Leaf (https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/d/renton-2018-nissan-leaf-sv/7356686079.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/d/renton-2018-nissan-...) for $20k, which ends up being $5k cheaper than a similar 2019 honda civic hatchback (https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/ctd/d/puyallup-2019-honda-civic-ex-fwd/7351019465.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/ctd/d/puyallup-2019-honda...). Hondas are better cars than Nissans, but it's clear that the price gap between EVs and ICE cars has narrowed considerably, to the point that it has basically disappeared. As another example, you can buy a 2016 Chevy Spark EV for $6k, and the car will have under 50k miles. (Example: https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/d/hillsboro-2016-chevy-spark-ev-all/7349290218.html https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/d/hillsboro-2016-che...). You'd be hard pressed to find a 2015 ICE hatchback with under 50,000 miles at that same $6k price.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  If you are buying an upscale commuter car to park beside your spouse's 4Runner what you are saying is absolutely true. A Leaf or Bolt is cheaper than the Civics and Camrys that typically adorn the driveways of good school districts. If you are mucking about lower in the market ICE is still cheaper. A Mitsubishi Mirage MSRP's for less than the used Leaf costs. ~5-8yo Kia Rios and Souls (and plenty of sedans) are everywhere for a little more or less than the Spark (which is a unicorn) depending on age/miles. The spark EV is a great deal if you need a stripped down urban runabout. It's an outlier and they aren't exactly readily available used since they were a compliance car with a set of attributes that make the high class consumers that typically buy EVs turn and run. Go sit in any spark. It will be clear why that one is $6k. There is a reason the dealer is advertising it as something that you buy for a teenager. There is a reason someone only put 50k on it in 6yr. If you need transportation and have that much money there are better ways to spend it unless you are very hung up on miles.