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Funny thing is that we have been running other experiments you would find just as silly: test gravitational attraction between human-scale objects with ridiculo

Funny thing is that we have been running other experiments you would find just as silly: test gravitational attraction between human-scale objects with ridiculously expensive and sensitive equipment, test whether there is a difference between gravitational and inertial mass, interfere neutrons(?) after they pass through slightly different gravitational fields on Earth. My favorite is measuring the dipole moment of the electron (like, duh, of course the electron does not have a dipole moment). All of these tests are silly if you believe the theories of the day. The vast majority of such tests in history have simply confirmed the theory of the day. And also, there are a small handful of them that have spurred the most amazing intellectual explosion in the history of this planet (Special/General relativity and Quantum theory). Also, the investment permits the contractors for the experiment to create an industrial base crucial for applications in the general economy.

AlotOfReading 5y ago
More experiments are always worthwhile, but from a practical perspective funding is a zero-sum game with a small number of finite pots. The question being raised isn't whether this proposal is worthwhile "in general", but instead whether it's a good use of finite finding vs other potential science. Given the immense cost and the lack of serious reasons to expect otherwise, I think it's a pretty reasonable question to ask.
- l33tman 5y ago
  I've heard it expressed numerous times that the zero-sum-game argument is a fallacy. There are a lot of foundations and donors that pick among projects and might just hold on to their money if a suitable project to fund is not available.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    Spending $1B to build an unmotivated device is not a suitable project. There is no reason to build this thing, not a single one has been suggested.
    - krastanov 5y ago
      I can not comment on the amount of money, but you do get that the question to be tested by this proposal is the main unsolved question that bothered Schroedinger, Bohr, Einstein, and others, right?
      - whatshisface 5y ago
        The $1B pricetag came from the linked article. The thing about the main unsolved question is simply false - the process by which classical mechanics emerges from quantum mechanics is already well-understood and partly taught in undergraduate courses.
        krastanov 5y ago
        Yes, I have even been an instructor for some of these classes. No, knowing how to take a limit / apply steepest descent does not tell you whether your model of reality is correct, it just lets you convert your model (quantum) to a more restricted model (classical). But you do not know if your intial model is not itself the limit of another model.
        whatshisface 5y ago
        Converting the quantum model into a classical model as the limit is taken of greater distances is an explanation of why we don't see quantum mechanics in our daily lives. It shows that no extra dynamics are necessary to "kill" quantum effects on macroscopic scales, because within the laws of quantum mechanics, it is already explained.
        l33tman 5y ago
        Decoherence theory explains that if you have an entangled system that is not sufficiently isolated it will pull in the environment (including the researchers) quickly into the superposition. This explains why a human won't see a "blur" or whatever if you look at Schrödingers Cat. But this seems apparent from the start unless you subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation literally (something I'm pretty sure not even most of the earliest QM researchers did). Since decoherence is just a linear (normal) process in the linear QM realm, you still need to postulate the Born rule and subscribe to one of the interpretations thereof, even if you're an Everettian, to make predictions. I think this is the main open ended question in QM.. But sure, there are many fringe theories going around and doing tests to falsify them would be good, it just seems steep to do it at $1B and the experiment only pushes the limit quantitatively, not qualitatively (as the same experiments are done on Earth regularly with lighter objects).
evanb 5y ago
The standard model of particle physics does predict the electron should have an EDM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_electric_dipole_moment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_electric_dipole_momen... However, a nonzero electron EDM indicates P and CP breaking; in the standard model it’s generated through loop effects from the CP violation in the CKM matrix, making it very very small (1e-38 e•cm). The experimental results are that it’s zero with a precision of ~1e-28 e•cm. So, there’s TEN orders of magnitude between experiment and theory—-that makes it not a particularly silly thing to measure, but a particularly appealing experimental target: lots of models of new physics predict something substantially larger than 1e-38, and the small value in the standard model makes a nonzero measurement an obvious signal. Contrast the muon g-2 measurements, for example, where a new lattice QCD calculation of standard-model effects claims to adjust the prediction in the 10th decimal, reducing the tension to 1.5 sigma. If an electron EDM is found anywhere in the next… 8 or 9 orders of magnitude, it’d be an inarguable sign of new physics.
- krastanov 5y ago
  That is exactly the point I am making with my (facetious) comment. We measure it because a mismatch from the very much exected result would be monumentally important, even if improbable.
whatshisface 5y ago
This is like spending $1B to pile up dirt to test the size of the biggest pile of dirt that can be piled with $1B. How can anyone know for sure that the laws of physics don't change when the expense of the pile crosses the $800M threshold? Obviously, the laws of physics do not have a dirt pile expense parameter. Just because some non-absurd ideas have been called absurd does not mean that no ideas are absurd. The idea that quantum mechanics stops working when too many particles get together is likewise absurd, because just like there's no way for a particle of dirt to "tell" how much money was spent piling it up, an atom does not "know" how many other atoms are in the macroscopic crystal it lives in.
- krastanov 5y ago
  The laws of physics have a lot of "dirtpile scale" parameters. When spacetime curvature (presence of mass) is measurable, Newtonian mechanics stops working. When the action integral is comparable to the Plank constant, classical probabilities do not work. When the Reynolds number goes beyond a threshold, laminar models of liquids do not work. You are factually wrong about your quantum mechanics claims. (1) The idea that quantum mechanics stops working at some mesoscopic scale is extremely popular among (respected) sceptics of quantum computing. (2) The most well known example of a quantum thought experiment, the Schrödinger cat, is about quantum mechanics (seemingly) not working at macroscopic scale (only last year was there a good theory explanation of the paradox https://pirsa.org/20010099 https://pirsa.org/20010099 ) (3) Decoherence is the thing causing fights between proponents of different formalizations of Quantum mechanics and this would be a very stringent test of that process. There are plenty more ideas that would get tested with this experiment. Also, I think you misunderstood my examples. None of the examples I gave in last post were considered absurd, rather all of them were fine measurements that were necessary in order to believe the theory when going into a new parameter regime. With your attitude we would have never found general relativity (of course throwing a bigger rock on the moon will follow Newton's law) or quasi crystals (of course only regular repetition can make a crystal) or prions (of course proteins do not reproduce). If you are arguing that this money right now would be better spent on global warming mitigation, then I would probably agree. But that is a relative, not an absolute statement like yours.

AlotOfReading 5y ago

More experiments are always worthwhile, but from a practical perspective funding is a zero-sum game with a small number of finite pots. The question being raised isn't whether this proposal is worthwhile "in general", but instead whether it's a good use of finite finding vs other potential science. Given the immense cost and the lack of serious reasons to expect otherwise, I think it's a pretty reasonable question to ask.

l33tman 5y ago
I've heard it expressed numerous times that the zero-sum-game argument is a fallacy. There are a lot of foundations and donors that pick among projects and might just hold on to their money if a suitable project to fund is not available.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Spending $1B to build an unmotivated device is not a suitable project. There is no reason to build this thing, not a single one has been suggested.
  - krastanov 5y ago
    I can not comment on the amount of money, but you do get that the question to be tested by this proposal is the main unsolved question that bothered Schroedinger, Bohr, Einstein, and others, right?
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      The $1B pricetag came from the linked article. The thing about the main unsolved question is simply false - the process by which classical mechanics emerges from quantum mechanics is already well-understood and partly taught in undergraduate courses.
      - krastanov 5y ago
        Yes, I have even been an instructor for some of these classes. No, knowing how to take a limit / apply steepest descent does not tell you whether your model of reality is correct, it just lets you convert your model (quantum) to a more restricted model (classical). But you do not know if your intial model is not itself the limit of another model.
        whatshisface 5y ago
        Converting the quantum model into a classical model as the limit is taken of greater distances is an explanation of why we don't see quantum mechanics in our daily lives. It shows that no extra dynamics are necessary to "kill" quantum effects on macroscopic scales, because within the laws of quantum mechanics, it is already explained.
        l33tman 5y ago
        Decoherence theory explains that if you have an entangled system that is not sufficiently isolated it will pull in the environment (including the researchers) quickly into the superposition. This explains why a human won't see a "blur" or whatever if you look at Schrödingers Cat. But this seems apparent from the start unless you subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation literally (something I'm pretty sure not even most of the earliest QM researchers did). Since decoherence is just a linear (normal) process in the linear QM realm, you still need to postulate the Born rule and subscribe to one of the interpretations thereof, even if you're an Everettian, to make predictions. I think this is the main open ended question in QM.. But sure, there are many fringe theories going around and doing tests to falsify them would be good, it just seems steep to do it at $1B and the experiment only pushes the limit quantitatively, not qualitatively (as the same experiments are done on Earth regularly with lighter objects).

evanb 5y ago

The standard model of particle physics does predict the electron should have an EDM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_electric_dipole_moment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_electric_dipole_momen... However, a nonzero electron EDM indicates P and CP breaking; in the standard model it’s generated through loop effects from the CP violation in the CKM matrix, making it very very small (1e-38 e•cm). The experimental results are that it’s zero with a precision of ~1e-28 e•cm. So, there’s TEN orders of magnitude between experiment and theory—-that makes it not a particularly silly thing to measure, but a particularly appealing experimental target: lots of models of new physics predict something substantially larger than 1e-38, and the small value in the standard model makes a nonzero measurement an obvious signal. Contrast the muon g-2 measurements, for example, where a new lattice QCD calculation of standard-model effects claims to adjust the prediction in the 10th decimal, reducing the tension to 1.5 sigma. If an electron EDM is found anywhere in the next… 8 or 9 orders of magnitude, it’d be an inarguable sign of new physics.

krastanov 5y ago
That is exactly the point I am making with my (facetious) comment. We measure it because a mismatch from the very much exected result would be monumentally important, even if improbable.

whatshisface 5y ago

This is like spending $1B to pile up dirt to test the size of the biggest pile of dirt that can be piled with $1B. How can anyone know for sure that the laws of physics don't change when the expense of the pile crosses the $800M threshold? Obviously, the laws of physics do not have a dirt pile expense parameter. Just because some non-absurd ideas have been called absurd does not mean that no ideas are absurd. The idea that quantum mechanics stops working when too many particles get together is likewise absurd, because just like there's no way for a particle of dirt to "tell" how much money was spent piling it up, an atom does not "know" how many other atoms are in the macroscopic crystal it lives in.

krastanov 5y ago
The laws of physics have a lot of "dirtpile scale" parameters. When spacetime curvature (presence of mass) is measurable, Newtonian mechanics stops working. When the action integral is comparable to the Plank constant, classical probabilities do not work. When the Reynolds number goes beyond a threshold, laminar models of liquids do not work. You are factually wrong about your quantum mechanics claims. (1) The idea that quantum mechanics stops working at some mesoscopic scale is extremely popular among (respected) sceptics of quantum computing. (2) The most well known example of a quantum thought experiment, the Schrödinger cat, is about quantum mechanics (seemingly) not working at macroscopic scale (only last year was there a good theory explanation of the paradox https://pirsa.org/20010099 https://pirsa.org/20010099 ) (3) Decoherence is the thing causing fights between proponents of different formalizations of Quantum mechanics and this would be a very stringent test of that process. There are plenty more ideas that would get tested with this experiment. Also, I think you misunderstood my examples. None of the examples I gave in last post were considered absurd, rather all of them were fine measurements that were necessary in order to believe the theory when going into a new parameter regime. With your attitude we would have never found general relativity (of course throwing a bigger rock on the moon will follow Newton's law) or quasi crystals (of course only regular repetition can make a crystal) or prions (of course proteins do not reproduce). If you are arguing that this money right now would be better spent on global warming mitigation, then I would probably agree. But that is a relative, not an absolute statement like yours.