6 ms·

Whatever you think of union, take this into account: You shouldn't be basing your opinions on your biases. Replace "Union Literature" with: - Soccer Literature

by ericol 5y ago

Whatever you think of union, take this into account: You shouldn't be basing your opinions on your biases. Replace "Union Literature" with: - Soccer Literature - LGBT+ Literature - Harry Potter Literature Do you agree with all this to also be confiscated would it be freely distributed at work?

chad_strategic 5y ago
Yes, I don't like Harry Potter and I shouldn't have to hear about him if I don't want to. All this can take place off site.
- slumpt_ 5y ago
  Fortunately the law disagrees with your regressive, anti-employee perspective.
  - chad_strategic 5y ago
    Are you familiar with at-will employment? If I'm the owner of company and employee talks to be about Harry Potter in the break room. Later that day, or on the spot, I can terminate that employee, without cause or reason. Sure they the employee can sue me for wrongful termination, but the laws are stacked against the employee. (I have been on both side of the argument.) Please reference a law to support your claim. You might want to study up on your law, history and economics.
    - decebalus1 5y ago
      I think you either haven't actually read the article, any of the replies in this thread or you're just a troll. We're not here to educate you, just look up the current US labor laws and see for yourself whether or not your argument has any standing.
      - chad_strategic 5y ago
        >Please reference a law to support your claim. ?
        decebalus1 5y ago
        If I do reference a law to support that claim, do you promise to stop posting on HN?
        chad_strategic 5y ago
        Having worked extensively with employment law and little union work I feel comfortable you will never find an example. However there never can be can be a resolution to your proposal, so with that I will have to pass on your entertaining offer. I will just leave this here for anybody who cares about employment law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
        decebalus1 5y ago
        From your link: > The National Labor Relations Act provides protection to employees who wish to join or form a union and those who engage in union activity. The act also protects employees who engage in a concerted activity. That's the law you should be looking for. Check it out. It has some provisions about distributing union literature in break rooms and stuff. Pretty interesting.
        chad_strategic 5y ago
        So are we arguing about the security officer or the person that was disturbing material? "In Spence’s case, the NLRB has made a finding of merit to the charges, and has indicated that it plans to issue a formal complaint. A finding of merit is not an official decision, but a crucial step in an ongoing proceeding. Amazon will now have the opportunity to settle. If Amazon does not agree to do so, then the NLRB will schedule a hearing before an administrative law judge." From the article the NLRB appears following the letter of the law. I'm not a big fan of labor laws, but they are the law so it's good know that everybody is getting a fair chance. Violations happen and there are penalties. "An NLRB investigation found that Amazon illegally prohibited Connor Spence, a Staten Island employee involved in union organizing, from distributing pro-union literature in a break room on May 16—and then confiscated the literature—also in violation of U.S. labor law, according to evidence provided by the NLRB to the union’s attorney. " As far as I can see, Connor Spence wasn't terminated. He filed a complaint via the NLRB. Good for him, we should always have a healthy distrust of corporation and governments. Were there could be confusion, was my explanation of AT-WILL employment regarding some other comment about Harry Potter be discussed at the work place. Had Spence been fired for spreading union material then yes it probably would have been a violation of labor laws. Although I have been restless down voted and trolled and trashed. The real crux of the issue and the article might be here, with who told the security officer to do what and when. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28055091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28055091
    - slumpt_ 5y ago
      My family all work in labor law. These suits come up regularly. Over-confident and under-educated small-time business owners such as yourself get owned by employees regularly for this very reason. I have no need to crack a book and cite labor law to you. Use Google or something. Or don’t. Pray you avoid future lawsuits. You’re ridiculous, but also morally reprehensible.
      - chad_strategic 5y ago
        Yet you don't work in labor law... Coward.
        slumpt_ 5y ago
        Of course I don’t. I married a lawyer. I like engineering, they like law. Not sure how that makes one a coward, though I can definitely see how disrespecting your employees’ labor rights does.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
valbaca 5y ago
What a beautiful example of false equivalence. Union literature has special protection because it's a certain type of literature. You cannot just "replace" with what you want. Certain things are protected by law. That's how laws work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_o...
- nerpderp82 5y ago
  The comments in this whole thread point on a severe lack of understanding around labor laws and ethics. At the same time it attracts the archetypal free-market laissez faire pseudo intellectual.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    I don't know what it is about software engineers, but it seems like there's a whole lot of them who seem to think you can learn everything you need to know about the world from one or two volumes of libertarian polemics.
    - kristopolous 5y ago
      Tech culture is infested with Horatio Alger stories of supposedly hard work, grit and gumption leading to success and riches. When you get Sand Hill Road investors they constrict an origin story with you that follows this path. So luck and pre-existing family wealth and connections get written out of the stories of people like Musk, Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, you name it. The true believers get drawn into tech. Only after careful readings do you get to "wow this rich smart kid was incredibly lucky" Instead, all these things work together to promote an illusion of unbiased meritocracy where if you got a clever idea and work hard you'll make it. The rich, smart, and luck get scrubbed out and replaced with a "Flowering of New England" Protestant Work Ethic. For the more cynical people they go to the likes of Christensen, Geoffrey Moore, Drucker, Steve Blank, Ries & Trout, Blanchard, etc who are certainly not critical of free markets, labor or capitalism in any way. You walk away from them with a less trusting and more cut throat version of essentially the same story. So it's constantly reinforced which is why it's really not that surprising that programming has a lot of people who frankly believe in essentially free market magic, unfounded hogwash and other nonsense, it's the only thing on offer. The myth of fantastic riches that avail themself to those who struggle is essentially one of the most common narrative archetypes there is. It's thousands of years old, even the cornerstone of many religions.
maxfurman 5y ago
Increasingly, strong unions are equally as fictional as Harry Potter in America.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Miner49er 5y ago
There's laws like this on both sides of union laws in the US. Certain things that are protected activities, and then there's things that unions can't do, too. It's not like this is a one-sided thing. Unions have protections like this, but also limits in US law.
paxys 5y ago
You can't replace union literature with any of those things because they are not even close to the same thing.
- 1-more 5y ago
  Replace union literature with a thermonuclear bomb set to explode in 90 seconds. You pinkos won't be singing the same tune then.

by ericol 5y ago

chad_strategic 5y ago

Yes, I don't like Harry Potter and I shouldn't have to hear about him if I don't want to. All this can take place off site.

slumpt_ 5y ago
Fortunately the law disagrees with your regressive, anti-employee perspective.
- chad_strategic 5y ago
  Are you familiar with at-will employment? If I'm the owner of company and employee talks to be about Harry Potter in the break room. Later that day, or on the spot, I can terminate that employee, without cause or reason. Sure they the employee can sue me for wrongful termination, but the laws are stacked against the employee. (I have been on both side of the argument.) Please reference a law to support your claim. You might want to study up on your law, history and economics.
  - decebalus1 5y ago
    I think you either haven't actually read the article, any of the replies in this thread or you're just a troll. We're not here to educate you, just look up the current US labor laws and see for yourself whether or not your argument has any standing.
    - chad_strategic 5y ago
      >Please reference a law to support your claim. ?
      - decebalus1 5y ago
        If I do reference a law to support that claim, do you promise to stop posting on HN?
        chad_strategic 5y ago
        Having worked extensively with employment law and little union work I feel comfortable you will never find an example. However there never can be can be a resolution to your proposal, so with that I will have to pass on your entertaining offer. I will just leave this here for anybody who cares about employment law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
        decebalus1 5y ago
        From your link: > The National Labor Relations Act provides protection to employees who wish to join or form a union and those who engage in union activity. The act also protects employees who engage in a concerted activity. That's the law you should be looking for. Check it out. It has some provisions about distributing union literature in break rooms and stuff. Pretty interesting.
        chad_strategic 5y ago
        So are we arguing about the security officer or the person that was disturbing material? "In Spence’s case, the NLRB has made a finding of merit to the charges, and has indicated that it plans to issue a formal complaint. A finding of merit is not an official decision, but a crucial step in an ongoing proceeding. Amazon will now have the opportunity to settle. If Amazon does not agree to do so, then the NLRB will schedule a hearing before an administrative law judge." From the article the NLRB appears following the letter of the law. I'm not a big fan of labor laws, but they are the law so it's good know that everybody is getting a fair chance. Violations happen and there are penalties. "An NLRB investigation found that Amazon illegally prohibited Connor Spence, a Staten Island employee involved in union organizing, from distributing pro-union literature in a break room on May 16—and then confiscated the literature—also in violation of U.S. labor law, according to evidence provided by the NLRB to the union’s attorney. " As far as I can see, Connor Spence wasn't terminated. He filed a complaint via the NLRB. Good for him, we should always have a healthy distrust of corporation and governments. Were there could be confusion, was my explanation of AT-WILL employment regarding some other comment about Harry Potter be discussed at the work place. Had Spence been fired for spreading union material then yes it probably would have been a violation of labor laws. Although I have been restless down voted and trolled and trashed. The real crux of the issue and the article might be here, with who told the security officer to do what and when. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28055091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28055091
  - slumpt_ 5y ago
    My family all work in labor law. These suits come up regularly. Over-confident and under-educated small-time business owners such as yourself get owned by employees regularly for this very reason. I have no need to crack a book and cite labor law to you. Use Google or something. Or don’t. Pray you avoid future lawsuits. You’re ridiculous, but also morally reprehensible.
    - chad_strategic 5y ago
      Yet you don't work in labor law... Coward.
      - slumpt_ 5y ago
        Of course I don’t. I married a lawyer. I like engineering, they like law. Not sure how that makes one a coward, though I can definitely see how disrespecting your employees’ labor rights does.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

valbaca 5y ago

What a beautiful example of false equivalence. Union literature has special protection because it's a certain type of literature. You cannot just "replace" with what you want. Certain things are protected by law. That's how laws work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_o...

nerpderp82 5y ago
The comments in this whole thread point on a severe lack of understanding around labor laws and ethics. At the same time it attracts the archetypal free-market laissez faire pseudo intellectual.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  I don't know what it is about software engineers, but it seems like there's a whole lot of them who seem to think you can learn everything you need to know about the world from one or two volumes of libertarian polemics.
  - kristopolous 5y ago
    Tech culture is infested with Horatio Alger stories of supposedly hard work, grit and gumption leading to success and riches. When you get Sand Hill Road investors they constrict an origin story with you that follows this path. So luck and pre-existing family wealth and connections get written out of the stories of people like Musk, Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, you name it. The true believers get drawn into tech. Only after careful readings do you get to "wow this rich smart kid was incredibly lucky" Instead, all these things work together to promote an illusion of unbiased meritocracy where if you got a clever idea and work hard you'll make it. The rich, smart, and luck get scrubbed out and replaced with a "Flowering of New England" Protestant Work Ethic. For the more cynical people they go to the likes of Christensen, Geoffrey Moore, Drucker, Steve Blank, Ries & Trout, Blanchard, etc who are certainly not critical of free markets, labor or capitalism in any way. You walk away from them with a less trusting and more cut throat version of essentially the same story. So it's constantly reinforced which is why it's really not that surprising that programming has a lot of people who frankly believe in essentially free market magic, unfounded hogwash and other nonsense, it's the only thing on offer. The myth of fantastic riches that avail themself to those who struggle is essentially one of the most common narrative archetypes there is. It's thousands of years old, even the cornerstone of many religions.

maxfurman 5y ago

Increasingly, strong unions are equally as fictional as Harry Potter in America.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Miner49er 5y ago

There's laws like this on both sides of union laws in the US. Certain things that are protected activities, and then there's things that unions can't do, too. It's not like this is a one-sided thing. Unions have protections like this, but also limits in US law.

paxys 5y ago

You can't replace union literature with any of those things because they are not even close to the same thing.

1-more 5y ago
Replace union literature with a thermonuclear bomb set to explode in 90 seconds. You pinkos won't be singing the same tune then.