5 ms·

I suspect there is a correlation between companies that have a culture of letting engineers change roles/departments (and a clear process for doing so) and rete

I suspect there is a correlation between companies that have a culture of letting engineers change roles/departments (and a clear process for doing so) and retention/average tenure.

hunter321 5y ago
As much as everyone hates on Amazon, no manager can block a internal transfer, maximum they can do is keep you for 4 weeks (with a very, very good reason). The average tenure on many, many teams is 6 months. Does help starve off the boredom.
- mcast 5y ago
  That's untrue, a manager can put their employee into a performance improvement program (without even needing to inform them) which would block them from any internal transfers.
  - Thiez 5y ago
    How does a pip effect improved performance when the employee isn't even aware they're in one? Is trying to switch teams the only way to discover that, or are there other indirect ways?
    - wombatpm 5y ago
      But HR sees it as a way to prevent a subpar employee from escaping the natural HR process. The fact that you have not been informed yet is just a failure of current management to follow process, but does not obsolve you of your subpar performance. HR is there for the company, not for you.
      - NortySpock 5y ago
        But really, if the only goal is to not be able to shirk a PIP by repeated team-hopping, the PIP should just follow you as you move teams rather than blocking your progress, right? "Here's Joe Candidate, he applied for your open position, and he has a 3 month old PIP on track to be resolved in 3 months. Accept or decline the transfer to your team?"
        wpietri 5y ago
        In theory that would be good. The issue is that a lot of managers don't like dealing with problems. If somebody is doing badly and maybe should be fired (which is what a PIP is supposed to indicate) you don't want a manager just passing the buck to some unsuspecting team. Ultimately, I think you're right. It's impossible to build a bureaucratic pachinko machine that will make the correct personnel decisions. You really need line managers dedicated to coaching staff, and higher-level managers coaching line managers. One-size-fits-all rules are not the optimal solution. But bad management is endemic in so many organizations that I'm sure these abuses go on all the time.
- throwaway9191aa 5y ago
  As long as you don't talk to your manager ahead of time. I watched a colleague tell our manager that the job wasn't in line with what was explained (colleague was right, he wasn't a fit). Instead of the manager moving him into a new roll, my colleague was PIP'd. When my colleague did try to transfer, the PIP blocked it. If you have a good manager, maybe its fine. But if your manager needs some headcount to cut.... don't trust them.
  - MelvinButtsESQ 5y ago
    IBM
- the_rectifier 5y ago
  False. In many teams half of the engineers are randomly put on pip and cannot switch team.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    Half?!? In most companies, a manager with half their people on PIPs would indicate the manager is really fucking things up somehow. Bad at hiring or bad at managing. That's not the case at Amazon?
    - throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
      People will believe everything (negative) they hear about amazon. And not bother to verify any of it.
- walshemj 5y ago
  It would take several weeks to get to grips with a new team / project - must be very hard to get much work out of a team member before they are off.
- lupire 5y ago
  Amazon employees attempt to rotate to Google every 2 years.
Arainach 5y ago
Changing projects is only half of it, though. Let's say I want a new project. I can search for a new team internally, find a mutual match, sign on, start and.....keep my current salary. Or I can search for a new team externally, find a mutual match, sign on, and get (in most cases) a significant raise and a new sign-on bonus. Even at a company I like, there's a significant incentive to leave.
- sdoering 5y ago
  Only difference would be, that in current company it is more easy to get an understanding if new project management sucks. > People hire at companies, bbut leave their boss. In my anecdata thus rings true.
- projectazorian 5y ago
  This is true in many cases but internal transfers can still make sense. Searching costs are a lot lower internally (no leetcoding needed in most cases, hopefully) and you are more likely to be able to land something outside of your current skillset, increasing your long term compensation and job security.

I suspect there is a correlation between companies that have a culture of letting engineers change roles/departments (and a clear process for doing so) and retention/average tenure.

hunter321 5y ago

As much as everyone hates on Amazon, no manager can block a internal transfer, maximum they can do is keep you for 4 weeks (with a very, very good reason). The average tenure on many, many teams is 6 months. Does help starve off the boredom.

mcast 5y ago
That's untrue, a manager can put their employee into a performance improvement program (without even needing to inform them) which would block them from any internal transfers.
- Thiez 5y ago
  How does a pip effect improved performance when the employee isn't even aware they're in one? Is trying to switch teams the only way to discover that, or are there other indirect ways?
  - wombatpm 5y ago
    But HR sees it as a way to prevent a subpar employee from escaping the natural HR process. The fact that you have not been informed yet is just a failure of current management to follow process, but does not obsolve you of your subpar performance. HR is there for the company, not for you.
    - NortySpock 5y ago
      But really, if the only goal is to not be able to shirk a PIP by repeated team-hopping, the PIP should just follow you as you move teams rather than blocking your progress, right? "Here's Joe Candidate, he applied for your open position, and he has a 3 month old PIP on track to be resolved in 3 months. Accept or decline the transfer to your team?"
      - wpietri 5y ago
        In theory that would be good. The issue is that a lot of managers don't like dealing with problems. If somebody is doing badly and maybe should be fired (which is what a PIP is supposed to indicate) you don't want a manager just passing the buck to some unsuspecting team. Ultimately, I think you're right. It's impossible to build a bureaucratic pachinko machine that will make the correct personnel decisions. You really need line managers dedicated to coaching staff, and higher-level managers coaching line managers. One-size-fits-all rules are not the optimal solution. But bad management is endemic in so many organizations that I'm sure these abuses go on all the time.
throwaway9191aa 5y ago
As long as you don't talk to your manager ahead of time. I watched a colleague tell our manager that the job wasn't in line with what was explained (colleague was right, he wasn't a fit). Instead of the manager moving him into a new roll, my colleague was PIP'd. When my colleague did try to transfer, the PIP blocked it. If you have a good manager, maybe its fine. But if your manager needs some headcount to cut.... don't trust them.
- MelvinButtsESQ 5y ago
  IBM
the_rectifier 5y ago
False. In many teams half of the engineers are randomly put on pip and cannot switch team.
- wpietri 5y ago
  Half?!? In most companies, a manager with half their people on PIPs would indicate the manager is really fucking things up somehow. Bad at hiring or bad at managing. That's not the case at Amazon?
  - throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
    People will believe everything (negative) they hear about amazon. And not bother to verify any of it.
walshemj 5y ago
It would take several weeks to get to grips with a new team / project - must be very hard to get much work out of a team member before they are off.
lupire 5y ago
Amazon employees attempt to rotate to Google every 2 years.

Arainach 5y ago

Changing projects is only half of it, though. Let's say I want a new project. I can search for a new team internally, find a mutual match, sign on, start and.....keep my current salary. Or I can search for a new team externally, find a mutual match, sign on, and get (in most cases) a significant raise and a new sign-on bonus. Even at a company I like, there's a significant incentive to leave.

sdoering 5y ago
Only difference would be, that in current company it is more easy to get an understanding if new project management sucks. > People hire at companies, bbut leave their boss. In my anecdata thus rings true.
projectazorian 5y ago
This is true in many cases but internal transfers can still make sense. Searching costs are a lot lower internally (no leetcoding needed in most cases, hopefully) and you are more likely to be able to land something outside of your current skillset, increasing your long term compensation and job security.