4 ms·

So strange to me that when UBI is discussed, pervasive automation is right around the corner to pay for it, but when birth rate decline is discussed, the only s

So strange to me that when UBI is discussed, pervasive automation is right around the corner to pay for it, but when birth rate decline is discussed, the only solution on the table is open borders. I wonder why that could be?

tomato-sauce 5y ago
I don’t think people are saying the only solution is open borders. More immigration is just the most obvious answer. It is possible in today’s world without relying on future technological developments. But when talking about UBI, people don’t look to immigration as a solution since they would need to be payed the same benefits as anyone else (unless this was some sort of two tiered society). UBI proponents then look towards automation as a solution.
vkou 5y ago
> but when birth rate decline is discussed, the only solution on the table is open borders. I wonder why that could be? Because people saying that are doing accounting with money, not productivity. People need three things to live in retirement. Food, water, shelter[1], and some degree of medical care. We are not in a demographic collapse situation where society cannot be productive enough to fail to provide the first three to the retired. The latter is the only thing in danger of seeing some cuts. [1] Housing isn't expensive because building four walls and a roof is expensive. Housing is expensive because there's no upward bound on the cost of a square foot of land in a city.
slothtrop 5y ago
There's complete cognitive dissonance and confusion at the moment over popular notions of national prosperity. On one hand people readily agree that the GDP is an inaccurate measure of prosperity, that wealth gained mostly goes to the top and it ought not be a prime focus, while at the same time suggest that high rates of immigration are crucial to prop up said GDP. Many countries with stagnant birthrates are rather enviable places to live, i.e. Iceland, Japan, SK. Besides a large aging population to support for a generation in some cases, I don't see the problem.
- entropicdrifter 5y ago
  Well, in the cases of Japan and SK, there is the issue of elderly people beginning to commit crimes on a regular basis in recent years because prison is free and they can't afford a retirement home.
  - CamTin 5y ago
    The American solution to this problem is just to charge people for the expense of being arrested and jailed: https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/2091-jail-fees https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/2091-jail-fees

tomato-sauce 5y ago

I don’t think people are saying the only solution is open borders. More immigration is just the most obvious answer. It is possible in today’s world without relying on future technological developments. But when talking about UBI, people don’t look to immigration as a solution since they would need to be payed the same benefits as anyone else (unless this was some sort of two tiered society). UBI proponents then look towards automation as a solution.

vkou 5y ago

> but when birth rate decline is discussed, the only solution on the table is open borders. I wonder why that could be? Because people saying that are doing accounting with money, not productivity. People need three things to live in retirement. Food, water, shelter[1], and some degree of medical care. We are not in a demographic collapse situation where society cannot be productive enough to fail to provide the first three to the retired. The latter is the only thing in danger of seeing some cuts. [1] Housing isn't expensive because building four walls and a roof is expensive. Housing is expensive because there's no upward bound on the cost of a square foot of land in a city.

slothtrop 5y ago

There's complete cognitive dissonance and confusion at the moment over popular notions of national prosperity. On one hand people readily agree that the GDP is an inaccurate measure of prosperity, that wealth gained mostly goes to the top and it ought not be a prime focus, while at the same time suggest that high rates of immigration are crucial to prop up said GDP. Many countries with stagnant birthrates are rather enviable places to live, i.e. Iceland, Japan, SK. Besides a large aging population to support for a generation in some cases, I don't see the problem.

entropicdrifter 5y ago
Well, in the cases of Japan and SK, there is the issue of elderly people beginning to commit crimes on a regular basis in recent years because prison is free and they can't afford a retirement home.
- CamTin 5y ago
  The American solution to this problem is just to charge people for the expense of being arrested and jailed: https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/2091-jail-fees https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/2091-jail-fees