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There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassi

There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassing But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs, which will leave a vacuum that can be filled by Federal agents that are more loyal to Washington than local cops Naturally, this "defund the police" message takes the air out of serious criminal justice reform. If "the Left," was serious about reforming our prisons, step one would be legalizing marijuana and everybody knows it. Schumer keeps saying they're going to do it this session but instead the Democrats are pushing through huge spending bills and arguing over which unarmed rioter proves the Reichstag Fire, er, I mean, 1/6 "Insurrection," justifies their rhetoric and attempts to federalize elections So yeah, actually, despite my argumentative tone I think I agree with everything you said and this is just additional context

mjburgess 5y ago
>But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs I think you should distinguish "democrats" the vast vast vast majority of which are conservative (in the sense of conserve), from far-left radicals. Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.
- loves_mangoes 5y ago
  If I may play devil's public relation for a second, >Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries. My twitter feed paints a different picture, I have a swath of people who would interpret the "defund the police" slogan as: "funding mental health, local services, and so on, through cuts to the police budget, military-style equipment, and such", and much less of the "abolish the police" anarchistic far-left sentiment you've perceived. Their movement seems to have a hard time distancing themselves from their more extreme members, and that is a plentiful source of people talking past each other, which does little to elevate the level of debate. Love.
  - danShumway 5y ago
    > My twitter feed paints a different picture To put this into perspective: The most recent study I've seen suggests that roughly 90% of tweets are posted by 10% of its users. Only about 20% of the American population is on Twitter in the first place, and that demographic is heavily skewed towards younger generations. Assuming those numbers are correct, 90% of Twitter's content is coming from 2% of the American population, with a heavy skew towards Left positions. To contrast, the most recent survey of "defund the police" I can find online suggests that less than 18% of the population supports defunding the police (~30% of Democrats). And the percentage of that group that interprets "defund the police" in the literal sense of slashing police budgets instead of as a cultural/political signal is probably even lower. People really don't realize how little Twitter represents reality. Part of this is the media's fault, part of it is the culture, part of it is... I'm not sure. But it's a really huge mistake to look at Twitter and think that it's a representative slice of mainstream opinion; if that was true then Warren would be president right now.
    - loves_mangoes 5y ago
      >The most recent study I've seen suggests that roughly 90% of tweets are posted by 10% of its users That seems in the right order of magnitude, for social media and web forums in general. >Only about 20% of the American population is on Twitter in the first place, and that demographic is heavily skewed towards younger generations So, I'll grant you that. My point really is about the interpretation of "defund the police" among people who subscribe to the idea, more than it is about the popularity of the movement. >To contrast, the most recent survey of "defund the police" I can find online suggests that less than 18% of the population supports defunding the police (~30% of Democrats). And the percentage of that group that interprets "defund the police" in the literal sense of slashing police budgets is probably even lower. Right, but wouldn't that stem precisely from the unclear communication problem I'm trying to highlight? If "defund the police" is only interpreted as "slashing police budgets", then it makes sense that the idea would poll poorly, especially to non-Twitter users. Worded like this, the idea seems to target people who dislike the police more than people who like social services. So the more important point, to me, is whether the public understanding of what the pollsters are asking matches how the movement wants to define itself. Otherwise that would be a quite misleading and unhelpful misrepresentation of the idea, wouldn't it? (Disclaimer: Hypothetically, I weakly support the idea, though I'm not a vocal supporter. I may have some biais.)
- danShumway 5y ago
  Right. I don't say this to disparage or dismiss people who do want to defund the police, I don't want to shut down that conversation, but that's also not what most mainstream Democrats believe. The idea is remarkably unpopular offline. Even something that (in my mind) should be pretty uncontroversial like getting rid of cash bail is considered a radical idea by a lot of people as soon as you step off of Twitter. Biden ran on increasing police budgets, and won the primary pretty handily. People have a misplaced view of how Left the Democratic electorate (and most of the people who get elected) actually are.
ggggtez 5y ago
As far as I know, defund the police isn't proposed as a solution to this problem. Police don't run the prisons. Maybe the two are connected, due to high incarceration rates being used to balance budgets, but afaik there are other solutions proposed like simply ending private prisons.

mjburgess 5y ago

>But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs I think you should distinguish "democrats" the vast vast vast majority of which are conservative (in the sense of conserve), from far-left radicals. Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.

loves_mangoes 5y ago
If I may play devil's public relation for a second, >Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries. My twitter feed paints a different picture, I have a swath of people who would interpret the "defund the police" slogan as: "funding mental health, local services, and so on, through cuts to the police budget, military-style equipment, and such", and much less of the "abolish the police" anarchistic far-left sentiment you've perceived. Their movement seems to have a hard time distancing themselves from their more extreme members, and that is a plentiful source of people talking past each other, which does little to elevate the level of debate. Love.
- danShumway 5y ago
  > My twitter feed paints a different picture To put this into perspective: The most recent study I've seen suggests that roughly 90% of tweets are posted by 10% of its users. Only about 20% of the American population is on Twitter in the first place, and that demographic is heavily skewed towards younger generations. Assuming those numbers are correct, 90% of Twitter's content is coming from 2% of the American population, with a heavy skew towards Left positions. To contrast, the most recent survey of "defund the police" I can find online suggests that less than 18% of the population supports defunding the police (~30% of Democrats). And the percentage of that group that interprets "defund the police" in the literal sense of slashing police budgets instead of as a cultural/political signal is probably even lower. People really don't realize how little Twitter represents reality. Part of this is the media's fault, part of it is the culture, part of it is... I'm not sure. But it's a really huge mistake to look at Twitter and think that it's a representative slice of mainstream opinion; if that was true then Warren would be president right now.
  - loves_mangoes 5y ago
    >The most recent study I've seen suggests that roughly 90% of tweets are posted by 10% of its users That seems in the right order of magnitude, for social media and web forums in general. >Only about 20% of the American population is on Twitter in the first place, and that demographic is heavily skewed towards younger generations So, I'll grant you that. My point really is about the interpretation of "defund the police" among people who subscribe to the idea, more than it is about the popularity of the movement. >To contrast, the most recent survey of "defund the police" I can find online suggests that less than 18% of the population supports defunding the police (~30% of Democrats). And the percentage of that group that interprets "defund the police" in the literal sense of slashing police budgets is probably even lower. Right, but wouldn't that stem precisely from the unclear communication problem I'm trying to highlight? If "defund the police" is only interpreted as "slashing police budgets", then it makes sense that the idea would poll poorly, especially to non-Twitter users. Worded like this, the idea seems to target people who dislike the police more than people who like social services. So the more important point, to me, is whether the public understanding of what the pollsters are asking matches how the movement wants to define itself. Otherwise that would be a quite misleading and unhelpful misrepresentation of the idea, wouldn't it? (Disclaimer: Hypothetically, I weakly support the idea, though I'm not a vocal supporter. I may have some biais.)
danShumway 5y ago
Right. I don't say this to disparage or dismiss people who do want to defund the police, I don't want to shut down that conversation, but that's also not what most mainstream Democrats believe. The idea is remarkably unpopular offline. Even something that (in my mind) should be pretty uncontroversial like getting rid of cash bail is considered a radical idea by a lot of people as soon as you step off of Twitter. Biden ran on increasing police budgets, and won the primary pretty handily. People have a misplaced view of how Left the Democratic electorate (and most of the people who get elected) actually are.

ggggtez 5y ago

As far as I know, defund the police isn't proposed as a solution to this problem. Police don't run the prisons. Maybe the two are connected, due to high incarceration rates being used to balance budgets, but afaik there are other solutions proposed like simply ending private prisons.