8 ms·

This is a very confusing announcement of..... what exactly? A github repo hosting the blog that the announcement was posted on! There isn't anything of substan

by querez 5y ago

This is a very confusing announcement of..... what exactly? A github repo hosting the blog that the announcement was posted on! There isn't anything of substance here, as far as I can tell. While the whole thing "looks" official and has a very official name, there is nothing of substance there. Some of the text is incoherent, telling us that the author learned some Rust as a break from university (good for him!). Some parts of the text use "we" language, other parts "I" language. But nothing really explains what this is about or why anyone should care, what the actual deliverables of this nebulous "organization" will be, who its participants are (other than blog-author-dude), how much industry support it has, or why this will have any impact. But on the flipside, the mission statement is a clearly defined "We want to do what you want to do" (actual quote from the page), and there is a whole GitHub repo hosting the logo of the project, so clearly this is going places.

tux3 5y ago
It seems they're just planting a flagpole, since no one else had done it yet, and calling for people who are interested to regroup under that label. Why not. Sometimes it really just takes a name and a place for people who have common goals to work together.
- shred45 5y ago
  What confuses me is that I know for a fact that several of those projects have or will be joining the CNCF, so I’m not sure they are in need of a governing body.
  - Nullabillity 5y ago
    As a co-maintainer of kube-rs, this is the first I've heard of this working group. I don't have anything against them or the idea per se, but I'd have appreciated a heads up before being listed in a way that could be read as us endorsing them.
    - nickgerace 5y ago
      I'd be happy to re-architect the website to make it clear that site exists to endorse projects and not the other way around. The latter is definitely not the intent, so if it reads that way, we should change it. Please feel free to file an issue: https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/rust-cloud-native.github.io/issues/new https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/rust-cloud-native.githu... EDIT: I have added a section explicitly stating the projects showcased are not officially affiliated unless given explicit consent from owners/maintainers.
      - Nullabillity 5y ago
        That looks much more reasonable, thanks!
        nickgerace 5y ago
        Of course! I do not want us to disrespect maintainers/owners; quite the opposite actually. Please never hesitate to file an issue for this kind of thing.
- nickgerace 5y ago
  I've addressed this in more detail in response to the top comment, but this is exactly correct. I'll admit, I could have expressed the intent more clearly, but there's been gridlock here, so I created the organization with the intent of doing _something_.
grumblenum 5y ago
The HN server or moderators promote literally anything with “Rust” in the title to the front page. Yes, Neo, you’re in the Matrix.
staticassertion 5y ago
I don't understand, this seems fairly straightforward. It's an announcement for a group that is forming and why that group is forming. It's even mentioned that the launch is largely symbolic, as the work is already open source, but that this is a sort of "call to arms". Seems pretty easy to understand.
- querez 5y ago
  I disagree. A typical announcement says WHO does WHAT and HOW, maybe even WHY in succinct, clear language. However, this post grinds my gears in all the wrong ways. The proper way to do what that guy set out to do would've been to write an RFC to some mailing list (or some Rust forum/social channel) and collectively build up a group. But announcing a group before the group's actually been formed is putting the cart before the horse. Don't get me wrong, I think it's laudable that someone started this effort, but it seems to me that it's being done/communicated in a fairly naive/inexperienced fashion. I'm sure they'll learn as they go along, and I probably am being way to harsh on people who actually are trying to do something good for the community.
  - ampdepolymerase 5y ago
    Seems like you are old fashioned and outdated.
    - querez 5y ago
      Just old enough to have seen how weird and political official announcements can get, and how important it is to nail communication if you're in the limelight.
  - notsureaboutpg 5y ago
    >The proper way to do what that guy set out to do would've been to write an RFC to some mailing list (or some Rust forum/social channel) and collectively build up a group. But announcing a group before the group's actually been formed is putting the cart before the horse. I don't see why it's a big deal. Now it's on the frontpage of HN. That's kind of like announcing on a big developer mailing list / forum / social channel. So what's actually different here? >I probably am being way to harsh on people who actually are trying to do something good for the community. At least you recognize this might be a bit much.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nickgerace 5y ago
This is fair comment! Thought I would add some clarity here: many comments here are correct in that the announcement is largely symbolic. The substance is minimal because this is a "call to arms" more than anything. Since there's been some gridlock in creating a central place for Rust Cloud Native _anything_, I mainly just wanted to start _something_. I can also see how the exchange of "I" and "we" was confusing. I talked to several folks about how to start this, so I did not want to claim sole ownership of ideas. This was created entirely with volunteer time, and would ideally not have its course determined from a BDFL (me, in this case). If people want a Discord, a Zoom meetups, events hosted, etc., we will do that. I do not want to burn out by creating a bunch of low quality community locations prematurely. These intentions could have be articulated more clearly, and I may edit the announcement post to do so. Thank you.
- Twirrim 5y ago
  > The substance is minimal because this is a "call to arms" more than anything To do what, exactly? You point to a blurb from CNCF, but then don't say how Rust fits in to it at all. It's really not clear what the goals actually are, beyond coming across as buzzword bingo. I'm sure that's not your intent.
  - nickgerace 5y ago
    Hmmm I see your point. Buzzword bingo is certainly not the intent, that is true. Perhaps, we need to be clear that while our _mission_ is to "enable the usage of Rust in the cloud", our _goal_ is to maintain existing repos within the org and take issue/discussion filer input for next steps. I believe the issue is that I've blended "why we exist" with "what we are doing". I'll fix that. Thank you for the feedback. EDIT: I've filed an issue to track this: https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/core/issues/7 https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/core/issues/7
- querez 5y ago
  Like I said in a comment further down below, I think my initial reaction and post were way too harsh (i.e., not constructive and cynical), sorry for that. It's great that you're taking the initiative and trying to build something, and I wish you all the best with it. To be more constructive: I personally feel that such efforts have an easier way of getting of the ground if you first build consensus with a smaller group in private. Ideally this would include some of the influential people in this sphere, (devs of larger projects in the space, cloud providers, famous rustaceans, ...). Otherwise the initiative does not have a lot of credibility (because it hinges on the words of someone most people will not have heard of). I find some of the wording weird in many places: 1) It gives the impression that this is an already established organization, when in fact it is merely a call to action. 2) You never actually say what you are trying to do. Even after all of this, I'm still not sure what you want to create. A community? A main code repository? A specific technical solution? You say you want to "enable the usage of Rust in the cloud". But that's super vague. I can use Rust in the cloud today already, so what are you _really_ after? And _how_ are you going to achieve that? 3) Putting the Code of Conduct front and center in your "approach" is just super weird.It's great that you have one, but it should ultimately just be a footnote. If someone asks you "how do you play hockey?", you don't answer: "well, there are strict rules about fouls, and if you commit one, you'll have to go on a time-out". Yes, there are some rules you'll need to follow, but that's not the main point of the game.

by querez 5y ago

tux3 5y ago

It seems they're just planting a flagpole, since no one else had done it yet, and calling for people who are interested to regroup under that label. Why not. Sometimes it really just takes a name and a place for people who have common goals to work together.

shred45 5y ago
What confuses me is that I know for a fact that several of those projects have or will be joining the CNCF, so I’m not sure they are in need of a governing body.
- Nullabillity 5y ago
  As a co-maintainer of kube-rs, this is the first I've heard of this working group. I don't have anything against them or the idea per se, but I'd have appreciated a heads up before being listed in a way that could be read as us endorsing them.
  - nickgerace 5y ago
    I'd be happy to re-architect the website to make it clear that site exists to endorse projects and not the other way around. The latter is definitely not the intent, so if it reads that way, we should change it. Please feel free to file an issue: https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/rust-cloud-native.github.io/issues/new https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/rust-cloud-native.githu... EDIT: I have added a section explicitly stating the projects showcased are not officially affiliated unless given explicit consent from owners/maintainers.
    - Nullabillity 5y ago
      That looks much more reasonable, thanks!
      - nickgerace 5y ago
        Of course! I do not want us to disrespect maintainers/owners; quite the opposite actually. Please never hesitate to file an issue for this kind of thing.
nickgerace 5y ago
I've addressed this in more detail in response to the top comment, but this is exactly correct. I'll admit, I could have expressed the intent more clearly, but there's been gridlock here, so I created the organization with the intent of doing _something_.

grumblenum 5y ago

The HN server or moderators promote literally anything with “Rust” in the title to the front page. Yes, Neo, you’re in the Matrix.

staticassertion 5y ago

I don't understand, this seems fairly straightforward. It's an announcement for a group that is forming and why that group is forming. It's even mentioned that the launch is largely symbolic, as the work is already open source, but that this is a sort of "call to arms". Seems pretty easy to understand.

querez 5y ago
I disagree. A typical announcement says WHO does WHAT and HOW, maybe even WHY in succinct, clear language. However, this post grinds my gears in all the wrong ways. The proper way to do what that guy set out to do would've been to write an RFC to some mailing list (or some Rust forum/social channel) and collectively build up a group. But announcing a group before the group's actually been formed is putting the cart before the horse. Don't get me wrong, I think it's laudable that someone started this effort, but it seems to me that it's being done/communicated in a fairly naive/inexperienced fashion. I'm sure they'll learn as they go along, and I probably am being way to harsh on people who actually are trying to do something good for the community.
- ampdepolymerase 5y ago
  Seems like you are old fashioned and outdated.
  - querez 5y ago
    Just old enough to have seen how weird and political official announcements can get, and how important it is to nail communication if you're in the limelight.
- notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  >The proper way to do what that guy set out to do would've been to write an RFC to some mailing list (or some Rust forum/social channel) and collectively build up a group. But announcing a group before the group's actually been formed is putting the cart before the horse. I don't see why it's a big deal. Now it's on the frontpage of HN. That's kind of like announcing on a big developer mailing list / forum / social channel. So what's actually different here? >I probably am being way to harsh on people who actually are trying to do something good for the community. At least you recognize this might be a bit much.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nickgerace 5y ago

This is fair comment! Thought I would add some clarity here: many comments here are correct in that the announcement is largely symbolic. The substance is minimal because this is a "call to arms" more than anything. Since there's been some gridlock in creating a central place for Rust Cloud Native _anything_, I mainly just wanted to start _something_. I can also see how the exchange of "I" and "we" was confusing. I talked to several folks about how to start this, so I did not want to claim sole ownership of ideas. This was created entirely with volunteer time, and would ideally not have its course determined from a BDFL (me, in this case). If people want a Discord, a Zoom meetups, events hosted, etc., we will do that. I do not want to burn out by creating a bunch of low quality community locations prematurely. These intentions could have be articulated more clearly, and I may edit the announcement post to do so. Thank you.

Twirrim 5y ago
> The substance is minimal because this is a "call to arms" more than anything To do what, exactly? You point to a blurb from CNCF, but then don't say how Rust fits in to it at all. It's really not clear what the goals actually are, beyond coming across as buzzword bingo. I'm sure that's not your intent.
- nickgerace 5y ago
  Hmmm I see your point. Buzzword bingo is certainly not the intent, that is true. Perhaps, we need to be clear that while our _mission_ is to "enable the usage of Rust in the cloud", our _goal_ is to maintain existing repos within the org and take issue/discussion filer input for next steps. I believe the issue is that I've blended "why we exist" with "what we are doing". I'll fix that. Thank you for the feedback. EDIT: I've filed an issue to track this: https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/core/issues/7 https://github.com/rust-cloud-native/core/issues/7
querez 5y ago
Like I said in a comment further down below, I think my initial reaction and post were way too harsh (i.e., not constructive and cynical), sorry for that. It's great that you're taking the initiative and trying to build something, and I wish you all the best with it. To be more constructive: I personally feel that such efforts have an easier way of getting of the ground if you first build consensus with a smaller group in private. Ideally this would include some of the influential people in this sphere, (devs of larger projects in the space, cloud providers, famous rustaceans, ...). Otherwise the initiative does not have a lot of credibility (because it hinges on the words of someone most people will not have heard of). I find some of the wording weird in many places: 1) It gives the impression that this is an already established organization, when in fact it is merely a call to action. 2) You never actually say what you are trying to do. Even after all of this, I'm still not sure what you want to create. A community? A main code repository? A specific technical solution? You say you want to "enable the usage of Rust in the cloud". But that's super vague. I can use Rust in the cloud today already, so what are you _really_ after? And _how_ are you going to achieve that? 3) Putting the Code of Conduct front and center in your "approach" is just super weird.It's great that you have one, but it should ultimately just be a footnote. If someone asks you "how do you play hockey?", you don't answer: "well, there are strict rules about fouls, and if you commit one, you'll have to go on a time-out". Yes, there are some rules you'll need to follow, but that's not the main point of the game.