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I don't know about South Korea, but looking at some other asian countries, there are a couple of things, I think the housing part falls into number 3 but is onl

I don't know about South Korea, but looking at some other asian countries, there are a couple of things, I think the housing part falls into number 3 but is only a small part of the whole: 1. Having children without being married has a bunch of problems, and in some countries like singapore gets punished for it in lack of certain social services 2. Most of these societies expect women to work or have their husband take care of them. Maternity leave is in some aspects as bad as or worse than in the US. 3. Having children is expensive and the education stress that follows for over a decade after giving birth is even more straining. The subsidies people get in Asia hardly even make up for the cost of a c-section. Sure the same might be true for the USA, but we know it's not a good place to compare things to. But birth and housing are also a fraction of the long term pain of raising a child in those societies. Other people have mentioned dating. I think modern societies in general have had a break down in social structures, where people used to get their partners from.

bobthepanda 5y ago
> Having children is expensive and the education stress that follows for over a decade after giving birth is even more straining. This times 100. The US education system has a lot of flaws, but for the most part, school placement is usually based on geographical location (which comes with its own set of problems), the SAT and ACT are not terribly difficult, and more importantly those college exams can be retaken multiple times a year. East Asian education is extremely competitive with competition for spots starting as early as pre-K (age 3). Japanese media often shows how students get their grades ranked and posted outside of the classroom. The college exams are more comprehensive than the American ones; the South Korean Suneung is scheduled to take 9 hours. The Suneung (and Chinese gaokao, Japanese Center Test, Singaporean GCE) are only held once a year, so if you want to retest you have to wait the whole year. And then there is the problem of school bullying: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/metoo-style-reckoning-over-school-bullying-rocks-south-korea-n1260865 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/metoo-style-reckoning-ove... > “A lot of the people used to say bullying matters in school were merely immature scuffles between teenagers,” she said. “Some would even blame the victims, saying that it is their problem that they cannot fit in.” > Two decades ago, her daughter was beaten by a dozen schoolmates and spent five days in a coma. Yet, when Jo attempted to hold the students accountable, the wider community viewed her as a troublemaker, and her family was forced to move to another area.
- babesh 5y ago
  The high tech/high income areas in the US are behaving a lot like this. There is a focus on getting into elite colleges and it propagates all the way down the system to preschool. As you alluded to, this makes it very expensive. People have maybe 2 and sometimes 1 kid… definitely below replacement level. The one difference I have noticed is that some of those Asian countries are more extreme in that more people choose to not have kids and more people choose to have only one kid instead of two.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    The nice thing is that at least having started out on this path in the US, it is fairly easy to opt out and have good incomes. I didn't get into any of my Ivy first choices and ended up going to a mid-tier state school and still wound up living well, except without the massive private debt burdens of my peers. This is different from South Korea or most of East Asia. South Korea's unemployment rate among graduates is pretty high and underemployment even higher, because the system is producing too many university graduates. From Wikipedia: > As of 2007, 80% of college graduates were job seekers while only 30% of jobs demand highly educated workers.[7] With the recent overabundance of high school and college graduates,[8] the requirements of the labor market mismatch the skills provided by the education system.
soperj 5y ago
>2. Most of these societies expect women to work or have their husband take care of them. Maternity leave is in some aspects as bad as or worse than in the US. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, looks like Korea has a year, just split into maternity and parental, and Japan has a year off for both mother and father, although the father seldom takes it. Which countries are comparable to the US?
- rjzzleep 5y ago
  Where did you get this number from ? I see 90 days. 60 paid full and if its anything like other Asian countries there a pretty low limit for the partial paid part. Maybe you can take a year but you will almost certainly not keep your job afterwards. I guess 45 days after birth is much better than most US jurisdictions. If the father does get it and doesn’t take it it will most certainly also be because of fear of punishment down the road. And funny you should say Japan, because from what I hear most people wouldn’t dare take time off.
  - soperj 5y ago
    the 90 days is just maternity leave. For parental leave you have a year, and by law you can't lose your job.
    - rjzzleep 5y ago
      I hate the fact that you didn't even bother looking up your claims, because you don't really understand the law. And the fact that I had to just spent 15 minutes on correcting you. Maternity leave is 90 days( Article 74 (Protection of Pregnant Women and Nursing Mothers [0]), paternity leave is actually 10 days( Article 18-2 Paternity Leave [1]). What you're referring to is CHAPTER III-2 assistance for work-family balance. And it only applies "provided, That this shall not apply to cases prescribed by Presidential Decree, such as where it is impossible to employ his or her substitute or where the normal operation of business is significantly impeded"[1]. The burden of proof like always is on the employee. And while you can't get fired during(provided the presidential decree doesn't apply to you), the employee may still try to get rid of you after you did it. But this also needs explaining that people in South Korea oftentimes stay with their employer a lifetime, that 1 year maybe chosen across 8 years of the Childs birth, and it's unlikely that in Asian culture someone will dare taking it in the first year of their employment. [0] https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_service/lawView.do?hseq=25437&lang=ENG https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_service/lawView.do?hseq=25437&la... [1] https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor_service/lawView.do?lang=ENG&hseq=55236&joseq=JO0018000 https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor_service/lawView.do?lang=ENG&hseq...
babesh 5y ago
I wonder if we need UBI to stabilize the birthrate. Basically if people have some assurance that their kids can be supported and have decent prospects in life then perhaps they will have more kids. Also, our big cities have evolved to serve adults vs children. We have a proliferation of services for adults: sit in restaurants, cafes, coffeehouses, etc… Just look at turnstiles to the subway and the stairs you need to ascend/descend. Good luck trying to push strollers or drag children around in our urban areas.
- mathverse 5y ago
  For Korea it's not about UBI but about terrible working conditions and societal pressure. Even with UBI you want your children to go to the best schools so they can get a job at one of the Chaebols.
  - babesh 5y ago
    Wouldn’t UBI serve as a counterweight to terrible working conditions and societal pressure?
    - mathverse 5y ago
      Koreans still have a culture of face.It's hard to admit that you live on just UBI and cant hang around your friends in places where you cant really afford to be.
- closeparen 5y ago
  Unfortunately I think "decent prospects" is more of a relative social status assessment than an absolute income level assessment.

bobthepanda 5y ago

> Having children is expensive and the education stress that follows for over a decade after giving birth is even more straining. This times 100. The US education system has a lot of flaws, but for the most part, school placement is usually based on geographical location (which comes with its own set of problems), the SAT and ACT are not terribly difficult, and more importantly those college exams can be retaken multiple times a year. East Asian education is extremely competitive with competition for spots starting as early as pre-K (age 3). Japanese media often shows how students get their grades ranked and posted outside of the classroom. The college exams are more comprehensive than the American ones; the South Korean Suneung is scheduled to take 9 hours. The Suneung (and Chinese gaokao, Japanese Center Test, Singaporean GCE) are only held once a year, so if you want to retest you have to wait the whole year. And then there is the problem of school bullying: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/metoo-style-reckoning-over-school-bullying-rocks-south-korea-n1260865 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/metoo-style-reckoning-ove... > “A lot of the people used to say bullying matters in school were merely immature scuffles between teenagers,” she said. “Some would even blame the victims, saying that it is their problem that they cannot fit in.” > Two decades ago, her daughter was beaten by a dozen schoolmates and spent five days in a coma. Yet, when Jo attempted to hold the students accountable, the wider community viewed her as a troublemaker, and her family was forced to move to another area.

babesh 5y ago
The high tech/high income areas in the US are behaving a lot like this. There is a focus on getting into elite colleges and it propagates all the way down the system to preschool. As you alluded to, this makes it very expensive. People have maybe 2 and sometimes 1 kid… definitely below replacement level. The one difference I have noticed is that some of those Asian countries are more extreme in that more people choose to not have kids and more people choose to have only one kid instead of two.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  The nice thing is that at least having started out on this path in the US, it is fairly easy to opt out and have good incomes. I didn't get into any of my Ivy first choices and ended up going to a mid-tier state school and still wound up living well, except without the massive private debt burdens of my peers. This is different from South Korea or most of East Asia. South Korea's unemployment rate among graduates is pretty high and underemployment even higher, because the system is producing too many university graduates. From Wikipedia: > As of 2007, 80% of college graduates were job seekers while only 30% of jobs demand highly educated workers.[7] With the recent overabundance of high school and college graduates,[8] the requirements of the labor market mismatch the skills provided by the education system.

soperj 5y ago

>2. Most of these societies expect women to work or have their husband take care of them. Maternity leave is in some aspects as bad as or worse than in the US. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, looks like Korea has a year, just split into maternity and parental, and Japan has a year off for both mother and father, although the father seldom takes it. Which countries are comparable to the US?

rjzzleep 5y ago
Where did you get this number from ? I see 90 days. 60 paid full and if its anything like other Asian countries there a pretty low limit for the partial paid part. Maybe you can take a year but you will almost certainly not keep your job afterwards. I guess 45 days after birth is much better than most US jurisdictions. If the father does get it and doesn’t take it it will most certainly also be because of fear of punishment down the road. And funny you should say Japan, because from what I hear most people wouldn’t dare take time off.
- soperj 5y ago
  the 90 days is just maternity leave. For parental leave you have a year, and by law you can't lose your job.
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    I hate the fact that you didn't even bother looking up your claims, because you don't really understand the law. And the fact that I had to just spent 15 minutes on correcting you. Maternity leave is 90 days( Article 74 (Protection of Pregnant Women and Nursing Mothers [0]), paternity leave is actually 10 days( Article 18-2 Paternity Leave [1]). What you're referring to is CHAPTER III-2 assistance for work-family balance. And it only applies "provided, That this shall not apply to cases prescribed by Presidential Decree, such as where it is impossible to employ his or her substitute or where the normal operation of business is significantly impeded"[1]. The burden of proof like always is on the employee. And while you can't get fired during(provided the presidential decree doesn't apply to you), the employee may still try to get rid of you after you did it. But this also needs explaining that people in South Korea oftentimes stay with their employer a lifetime, that 1 year maybe chosen across 8 years of the Childs birth, and it's unlikely that in Asian culture someone will dare taking it in the first year of their employment. [0] https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_service/lawView.do?hseq=25437&lang=ENG https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_service/lawView.do?hseq=25437&la... [1] https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor_service/lawView.do?lang=ENG&hseq=55236&joseq=JO0018000 https://elaw.klri.re.kr/kor_service/lawView.do?lang=ENG&hseq...

babesh 5y ago

I wonder if we need UBI to stabilize the birthrate. Basically if people have some assurance that their kids can be supported and have decent prospects in life then perhaps they will have more kids. Also, our big cities have evolved to serve adults vs children. We have a proliferation of services for adults: sit in restaurants, cafes, coffeehouses, etc… Just look at turnstiles to the subway and the stairs you need to ascend/descend. Good luck trying to push strollers or drag children around in our urban areas.

mathverse 5y ago
For Korea it's not about UBI but about terrible working conditions and societal pressure. Even with UBI you want your children to go to the best schools so they can get a job at one of the Chaebols.
- babesh 5y ago
  Wouldn’t UBI serve as a counterweight to terrible working conditions and societal pressure?
  - mathverse 5y ago
    Koreans still have a culture of face.It's hard to admit that you live on just UBI and cant hang around your friends in places where you cant really afford to be.
closeparen 5y ago
Unfortunately I think "decent prospects" is more of a relative social status assessment than an absolute income level assessment.