5 ms·

I don't see the issue with LFR. If you want to join a guild and run raids you still can. However, some of us don't feel like joining a guild and would rather ju

I don't see the issue with LFR. If you want to join a guild and run raids you still can. However, some of us don't feel like joining a guild and would rather just queue up every now and then.

JohnWhigham 5y ago
That's missing the point though. Its introduction was a marked change in server/player culture that only accelerated over the next decade; players didn't want to put effort into something that took time, they wanted it now.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  Yes, low effort queues remove the incentive for cooperation and community.
  - serverholic 5y ago
    Fuck community. I just want to play an RPG
- Ntrails 5y ago
  I went back and played a little while ago. Dungeon Finder was near instant, and would stick me in a dungeon I had zero context for. Magically transported there. Nobody was from my server. No conversation/chat. The encounters/dungeons themselves were utterly without context (I never had a clue where they were) and felt like clicking through to get loot with no sense of storyline. For me, that's a huge negative. I remember that the dungeons on the shattered plains (i think) specifically revolved around the shattered hand orcs or whatever. They synced with the area and the quests I'd been doing locally. It felt like a cohesive world I was involved in. I cannot argue that the new system isn't efficient. It got me playing and it got me loot. But I never learned anything about anyone. I never engaged with the story. I'm just old I guess xD
- serverholic 5y ago
  I don't see it that way. I'm cool with things that take time like moving up the ranks in Mythic+. What I didn't like was the forced socialization. I'm fine with my IRL friends, I don't want a bunch of people pinging me when I login to Wow. I just want to login, group up for a Mythic and log off. Not everyone has to play like you do.
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    And some people are lonely and would prefer the game design which forced them to socialize with others (or forced others to socialize with them). You can't please them all.
rubicon33 5y ago
To be clear - I support LFR but here's why I think some people don't like it: There was a "golden age" of WoW where things were new, and hard. It was a perfect balance of difficulty and grind made bearable by the newness and marvel of it all. I liken it to finding a new programming project which you are stoked on. The effort/reward loop is finely tuned. LFR was part of a bunch of changes, spanning years, that evolved WoW but moved further and further away from that initial magic. The gripe many have/had is that LFG/LFR removes the community building element of having to find a group, or find a guild. You had to really work to get a group, and work even harder to get (and stay in) a guild. I remember when I first stepped into SSC. I had spent months working for that. To then work with that guild to clear SSC and move on to Hyjal was thoroughly amazing. Yes, you can still "do" that (get a guild, hardcore raid) but there was something about knowing that other people hadn't even seen what you were seeing, that was thrilling. I think some people also don't like that the same gear (or nearly the same) models are available to LFR groups. Back in the day, if you saw someone walking around with a full T3 set it was something magical. Nowadays, everyone kinda looks the same. I remember that I first started feeling that way when LFR was introduced.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  That's the curse of all long-running MMOs, though. You have to have power inflation, for any of the common content models to work. And you have to also provide a fast lane for new players, otherwise no one is going to join, only to be a decade behind where everyone else is now. It's unfortunate because it screws existing players. But ultimately, that's only because they believe the myth that MMO stats / levels / gear actually have value.
  - serverholic 5y ago
    I actually think their current model works pretty well. You have a fast track to the current content but the current content has levels of difficulty that you can work on.
  - rubicon33 5y ago
    Totally. I don’t fault Blizzard really at all for the evolution of WoW over the years. It had to evolve, and so it did. It just meant that for me, a lot of the magic was gone. But I had also grown up a lot, and had dramatically less free time, so I don’t even think I could ever support that “golden age” of WoW gaming even if it had never changed. All in all, they grew up with their player base and I don’t fault them for it in the slightest. Sure, minor gripes here and there but generally speaking, they have made the right calls.
cletus 5y ago
So this scratches a big topic of what's wrong with WoW. In short, WoW has transitioned to being run by people who don't play the game, don't understand people who do play the game and are targeting the game at people who don't play the game at the expense of those that do. LFR undermines both the aspirational part of the game, which is extremely important, and the social aspect of building relationships, which is super-important and the real reason most people stick around. Now we have 4 raid levels (LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic), which is too many. The differences are largely cosmetic and minor ilvl bumps. There are some unique items in higher tiers, to be clear. Lastly, LFR is essentially an interactive cinematic. It's part of what I like to call "conveyor belt content". There's no choices to be made. The outcome is almost certain. You may as well be watching a cinematic. This probably goes well beyond LFR.
- stormbeard 5y ago
  You can just play classic and go back to the good old days.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    It isn't the good old days. Classic was "hard" because of organizational challenges, patience requirements, and most importantly lack of information. Access to information has completely changed the game, explaining why it took people virtually zero time to beat MC this time around. The classic of reading some sketchy material on forums to understand raid mechanics and raiding with keyboard turners is gone and can never be recreated.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  > WoW has transitioned to being run by people who don't play the game Current game designer Ion Hazikostas is a hardcore raider, guild leader and completed every raid in game on the highest difficulty. I don't think it's fair to qualify him as not playing the game. Of course I have no idea about their internal chains, that's only a public high-ranked figure. I'm generally agree with your stance and I don't like many changes either. But I can accept that those changes actually were necessary for the game to survive, as current playerbase is completely different from those who played the game 10 years ago.

I don't see the issue with LFR. If you want to join a guild and run raids you still can. However, some of us don't feel like joining a guild and would rather just queue up every now and then.

JohnWhigham 5y ago

That's missing the point though. Its introduction was a marked change in server/player culture that only accelerated over the next decade; players didn't want to put effort into something that took time, they wanted it now.

rightbyte 5y ago
Yes, low effort queues remove the incentive for cooperation and community.
- serverholic 5y ago
  Fuck community. I just want to play an RPG
Ntrails 5y ago
I went back and played a little while ago. Dungeon Finder was near instant, and would stick me in a dungeon I had zero context for. Magically transported there. Nobody was from my server. No conversation/chat. The encounters/dungeons themselves were utterly without context (I never had a clue where they were) and felt like clicking through to get loot with no sense of storyline. For me, that's a huge negative. I remember that the dungeons on the shattered plains (i think) specifically revolved around the shattered hand orcs or whatever. They synced with the area and the quests I'd been doing locally. It felt like a cohesive world I was involved in. I cannot argue that the new system isn't efficient. It got me playing and it got me loot. But I never learned anything about anyone. I never engaged with the story. I'm just old I guess xD
serverholic 5y ago
I don't see it that way. I'm cool with things that take time like moving up the ranks in Mythic+. What I didn't like was the forced socialization. I'm fine with my IRL friends, I don't want a bunch of people pinging me when I login to Wow. I just want to login, group up for a Mythic and log off. Not everyone has to play like you do.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  And some people are lonely and would prefer the game design which forced them to socialize with others (or forced others to socialize with them). You can't please them all.

rubicon33 5y ago

To be clear - I support LFR but here's why I think some people don't like it: There was a "golden age" of WoW where things were new, and hard. It was a perfect balance of difficulty and grind made bearable by the newness and marvel of it all. I liken it to finding a new programming project which you are stoked on. The effort/reward loop is finely tuned. LFR was part of a bunch of changes, spanning years, that evolved WoW but moved further and further away from that initial magic. The gripe many have/had is that LFG/LFR removes the community building element of having to find a group, or find a guild. You had to really work to get a group, and work even harder to get (and stay in) a guild. I remember when I first stepped into SSC. I had spent months working for that. To then work with that guild to clear SSC and move on to Hyjal was thoroughly amazing. Yes, you can still "do" that (get a guild, hardcore raid) but there was something about knowing that other people hadn't even seen what you were seeing, that was thrilling. I think some people also don't like that the same gear (or nearly the same) models are available to LFR groups. Back in the day, if you saw someone walking around with a full T3 set it was something magical. Nowadays, everyone kinda looks the same. I remember that I first started feeling that way when LFR was introduced.

ethbr0 5y ago
That's the curse of all long-running MMOs, though. You have to have power inflation, for any of the common content models to work. And you have to also provide a fast lane for new players, otherwise no one is going to join, only to be a decade behind where everyone else is now. It's unfortunate because it screws existing players. But ultimately, that's only because they believe the myth that MMO stats / levels / gear actually have value.
- serverholic 5y ago
  I actually think their current model works pretty well. You have a fast track to the current content but the current content has levels of difficulty that you can work on.
- rubicon33 5y ago
  Totally. I don’t fault Blizzard really at all for the evolution of WoW over the years. It had to evolve, and so it did. It just meant that for me, a lot of the magic was gone. But I had also grown up a lot, and had dramatically less free time, so I don’t even think I could ever support that “golden age” of WoW gaming even if it had never changed. All in all, they grew up with their player base and I don’t fault them for it in the slightest. Sure, minor gripes here and there but generally speaking, they have made the right calls.

cletus 5y ago

So this scratches a big topic of what's wrong with WoW. In short, WoW has transitioned to being run by people who don't play the game, don't understand people who do play the game and are targeting the game at people who don't play the game at the expense of those that do. LFR undermines both the aspirational part of the game, which is extremely important, and the social aspect of building relationships, which is super-important and the real reason most people stick around. Now we have 4 raid levels (LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic), which is too many. The differences are largely cosmetic and minor ilvl bumps. There are some unique items in higher tiers, to be clear. Lastly, LFR is essentially an interactive cinematic. It's part of what I like to call "conveyor belt content". There's no choices to be made. The outcome is almost certain. You may as well be watching a cinematic. This probably goes well beyond LFR.

stormbeard 5y ago
You can just play classic and go back to the good old days.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  It isn't the good old days. Classic was "hard" because of organizational challenges, patience requirements, and most importantly lack of information. Access to information has completely changed the game, explaining why it took people virtually zero time to beat MC this time around. The classic of reading some sketchy material on forums to understand raid mechanics and raiding with keyboard turners is gone and can never be recreated.
vbezhenar 5y ago
> WoW has transitioned to being run by people who don't play the game Current game designer Ion Hazikostas is a hardcore raider, guild leader and completed every raid in game on the highest difficulty. I don't think it's fair to qualify him as not playing the game. Of course I have no idea about their internal chains, that's only a public high-ranked figure. I'm generally agree with your stance and I don't like many changes either. But I can accept that those changes actually were necessary for the game to survive, as current playerbase is completely different from those who played the game 10 years ago.