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Has slavery not been abolished in Northern America? If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? Wikipedia says things like the death penalty st

by tux3 5y ago

Has slavery not been abolished in Northern America? If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? Wikipedia says things like the death penalty still exists in half of US states, but I don't know the numbers for states using captive workers.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Slavery as a punishment for a crime is legal federally, ie, in all of the US.
tantalor 5y ago
Slavery is still allowed in US as punishment for crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
danShumway 5y ago
> If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? :) You'd think, right? It's not exactly a niche issue, there are plenty of people talking about it. But once you get fully into the mainstream, the issue seems to just fall off completely. There's a real apathy in America about how our prison system works, and not just apathy on the Right, mainstream Democrats talk about modern-day slavery in prison way less than I would expect them to. I'm not sure if it's a messaging thing, or if culturally we're just primed not to care. But yeah, America never fully ended slavery, it's still allowed if you've been convicted of a crime.
- jhcxfjnv 5y ago
  There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassing But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs, which will leave a vacuum that can be filled by Federal agents that are more loyal to Washington than local cops Naturally, this "defund the police" message takes the air out of serious criminal justice reform. If "the Left," was serious about reforming our prisons, step one would be legalizing marijuana and everybody knows it. Schumer keeps saying they're going to do it this session but instead the Democrats are pushing through huge spending bills and arguing over which unarmed rioter proves the Reichstag Fire, er, I mean, 1/6 "Insurrection," justifies their rhetoric and attempts to federalize elections So yeah, actually, despite my argumentative tone I think I agree with everything you said and this is just additional context
  - mjburgess 5y ago
    >But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs I think you should distinguish "democrats" the vast vast vast majority of which are conservative (in the sense of conserve), from far-left radicals. Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.
    - loves_mangoes 5y ago
      If I may play devil's public relation for a second, >Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries. My twitter feed paints a different picture, I have a swath of people who would interpret the "defund the police" slogan as: "funding mental health, local services, and so on, through cuts to the police budget, military-style equipment, and such", and much less of the "abolish the police" anarchistic far-left sentiment you've perceived. Their movement seems to have a hard time distancing themselves from their more extreme members, and that is a plentiful source of people talking past each other, which does little to elevate the level of debate. Love.
      - danShumway 5y ago
        > My twitter feed paints a different picture To put this into perspective: The most recent study I've seen suggests that roughly 90% of tweets are posted by 10% of its users. Only about 20% of the American population is on Twitter in the first place, and that demographic is heavily skewed towards younger generations. Assuming those numbers are correct, 90% of Twitter's content is coming from 2% of the American population, with a heavy skew towards Left positions. To contrast, the most recent survey of "defund the police" I can find online suggests that less than 18% of the population supports defunding the police (~30% of Democrats). And the percentage of that group that interprets "defund the police" in the literal sense of slashing police budgets instead of as a cultural/political signal is probably even lower. People really don't realize how little Twitter represents reality. Part of this is the media's fault, part of it is the culture, part of it is... I'm not sure. But it's a really huge mistake to look at Twitter and think that it's a representative slice of mainstream opinion; if that was true then Warren would be president right now.
- Ntrails 5y ago
  > I'm not sure if it's a messaging thing, or if culturally we're just primed not to care. I think that lots of people don't give much of a shit about prison experiences. The classic maybe you shouldn't have committed crime in the first place, let that be a lesson to you etc. Prison is supposed (in many peoples view, irrespective of stated aims in law) to be a deterrent. Not Fun. Breaking rocks and digging ditches and not having cable tv etc fits that mould. So I guess you'd want to change that pretty ingrained cultural precept? Personally I'd rather pitch "prisons should be safe, comfortable, clean" over "no more modern slavery" - feels like an easier sell.
ggggtez 5y ago
Prison labor is the rule rather than the exception. In many states, prisons are also run by for-profit companies. Occasionally it's mentioned on some show like Jon Oliver, but there isn't the political willpower to solve this clear abuse since it would cost more money.
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  Less than 10% of inmates are held in private prisons. Biden seems to want to change this: https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-prisons-coronavirus-pandemic-c8c246f00695f37ef2afb1dd3a5f115e https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-pris...

by tux3 5y ago

sudosysgen 5y ago

Slavery as a punishment for a crime is legal federally, ie, in all of the US.

tantalor 5y ago

Slavery is still allowed in US as punishment for crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...

danShumway 5y ago

> If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? :) You'd think, right? It's not exactly a niche issue, there are plenty of people talking about it. But once you get fully into the mainstream, the issue seems to just fall off completely. There's a real apathy in America about how our prison system works, and not just apathy on the Right, mainstream Democrats talk about modern-day slavery in prison way less than I would expect them to. I'm not sure if it's a messaging thing, or if culturally we're just primed not to care. But yeah, America never fully ended slavery, it's still allowed if you've been convicted of a crime.

jhcxfjnv 5y ago
There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassing But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs, which will leave a vacuum that can be filled by Federal agents that are more loyal to Washington than local cops Naturally, this "defund the police" message takes the air out of serious criminal justice reform. If "the Left," was serious about reforming our prisons, step one would be legalizing marijuana and everybody knows it. Schumer keeps saying they're going to do it this session but instead the Democrats are pushing through huge spending bills and arguing over which unarmed rioter proves the Reichstag Fire, er, I mean, 1/6 "Insurrection," justifies their rhetoric and attempts to federalize elections So yeah, actually, despite my argumentative tone I think I agree with everything you said and this is just additional context
- mjburgess 5y ago
  >But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs I think you should distinguish "democrats" the vast vast vast majority of which are conservative (in the sense of conserve), from far-left radicals. Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.
  - loves_mangoes 5y ago
    If I may play devil's public relation for a second, >Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries. My twitter feed paints a different picture, I have a swath of people who would interpret the "defund the police" slogan as: "funding mental health, local services, and so on, through cuts to the police budget, military-style equipment, and such", and much less of the "abolish the police" anarchistic far-left sentiment you've perceived. Their movement seems to have a hard time distancing themselves from their more extreme members, and that is a plentiful source of people talking past each other, which does little to elevate the level of debate. Love.
    - danShumway 5y ago
      > My twitter feed paints a different picture To put this into perspective: The most recent study I've seen suggests that roughly 90% of tweets are posted by 10% of its users. Only about 20% of the American population is on Twitter in the first place, and that demographic is heavily skewed towards younger generations. Assuming those numbers are correct, 90% of Twitter's content is coming from 2% of the American population, with a heavy skew towards Left positions. To contrast, the most recent survey of "defund the police" I can find online suggests that less than 18% of the population supports defunding the police (~30% of Democrats). And the percentage of that group that interprets "defund the police" in the literal sense of slashing police budgets instead of as a cultural/political signal is probably even lower. People really don't realize how little Twitter represents reality. Part of this is the media's fault, part of it is the culture, part of it is... I'm not sure. But it's a really huge mistake to look at Twitter and think that it's a representative slice of mainstream opinion; if that was true then Warren would be president right now.
Ntrails 5y ago
> I'm not sure if it's a messaging thing, or if culturally we're just primed not to care. I think that lots of people don't give much of a shit about prison experiences. The classic maybe you shouldn't have committed crime in the first place, let that be a lesson to you etc. Prison is supposed (in many peoples view, irrespective of stated aims in law) to be a deterrent. Not Fun. Breaking rocks and digging ditches and not having cable tv etc fits that mould. So I guess you'd want to change that pretty ingrained cultural precept? Personally I'd rather pitch "prisons should be safe, comfortable, clean" over "no more modern slavery" - feels like an easier sell.

ggggtez 5y ago

Prison labor is the rule rather than the exception. In many states, prisons are also run by for-profit companies. Occasionally it's mentioned on some show like Jon Oliver, but there isn't the political willpower to solve this clear abuse since it would cost more money.

vb6sp6 5y ago
Less than 10% of inmates are held in private prisons. Biden seems to want to change this: https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-prisons-coronavirus-pandemic-c8c246f00695f37ef2afb1dd3a5f115e https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-pris...