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> ... as bosses refuse to raise wages to attract employees I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. It levels the playing field for everybody. The

> ... as bosses refuse to raise wages to attract employees I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. It levels the playing field for everybody. The problem with the current job market is that the negotiation power is not symmetrical.

shadowgovt 5y ago
It's not clear that UBI would make negotiation power symmetrical per se, but if it were placed at a high enough value to take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- BrianOnHN 5y ago
  > take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless. Who could consciously down vote this? -1 to HN perceived morality.
dahfizz 5y ago
> I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. To which problem? A UBI will obviously mean more income for those stuck in low wage jobs. But a UBI will definitely not help attract employees to low wage positions. In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The problem of undesirable work being low wage due to people being born to the parents they were born to.
- foxyv 5y ago
  Maybe UBI will drill into business leaders heads that they need to either: a) Make a better workplace that people don't hate coming to. b) Make the wages compensate enough for the terrible environment they have created. With a UBI, managers would no longer be under the illusion that "They will eventually come crawling back when they run out of money."
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The upper income deciles will hate it though since a lot of their quality of life comes from the bottom deciles not having a better option, and hence working for lower prices. As those prices rise, the higher deciles will have to reduce consumption. Should be interesting to see it play out politically.
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      Not to mention the fact that the upper income deciles are the ones writing the UBI checks...
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    I think that will happen in some cases, but we need to be prepared for the reality that wages can't increase everywhere. Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages. You may think that's a good thing, but you can't just say "Those rich businesses will just cough up more money". That won't always be the case.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      > Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages Or they can increase prices to match their increased salary expenditures and stay in business.
    - foxyv 5y ago
      Notice I mentioned two options. The other option is they can just be a friendlier place to work. Most people don't care about compensation beyond their basic needs. They want a secure, safe, and happy place to work that pays a living wage. With UBI, places like that will do MUCH better because people won't have to work for bad employers to make a living wage. Often the major predictor of an employee leaving/staying isn't the compensation, but the management.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  > In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage). I don't think this is true. I am also of the opinion that UBI would decrease demand for low wage jobs, but I do not believe that the increased unemployment benefits due to COVID proves this. The increased unemployment benefits have an income cliff where they go away, so it is possible to return to work and end up making less than (or very close to) what you were making from unemployment. I certainly know a few people who would make barely any more money from returning to work compared to the unemployment benefits they receive.
lm28469 5y ago
> I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. Or you know, proper min wages and benefits: paid vacations, paid sick days, paid parental leaves, &c. Not treating people like cattle is a good starting point
Ericson2314 5y ago
No UBI is supposed to make people harder to hire, which is why employers are complaining the unimployment benefits are too generous.

shadowgovt 5y ago

It's not clear that UBI would make negotiation power symmetrical per se, but if it were placed at a high enough value to take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
BrianOnHN 5y ago
> take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless. Who could consciously down vote this? -1 to HN perceived morality.

dahfizz 5y ago

> I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. To which problem? A UBI will obviously mean more income for those stuck in low wage jobs. But a UBI will definitely not help attract employees to low wage positions. In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).

lotsofpulp 5y ago
The problem of undesirable work being low wage due to people being born to the parents they were born to.
foxyv 5y ago
Maybe UBI will drill into business leaders heads that they need to either: a) Make a better workplace that people don't hate coming to. b) Make the wages compensate enough for the terrible environment they have created. With a UBI, managers would no longer be under the illusion that "They will eventually come crawling back when they run out of money."
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The upper income deciles will hate it though since a lot of their quality of life comes from the bottom deciles not having a better option, and hence working for lower prices. As those prices rise, the higher deciles will have to reduce consumption. Should be interesting to see it play out politically.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    Not to mention the fact that the upper income deciles are the ones writing the UBI checks...
- dahfizz 5y ago
  I think that will happen in some cases, but we need to be prepared for the reality that wages can't increase everywhere. Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages. You may think that's a good thing, but you can't just say "Those rich businesses will just cough up more money". That won't always be the case.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages Or they can increase prices to match their increased salary expenditures and stay in business.
  - foxyv 5y ago
    Notice I mentioned two options. The other option is they can just be a friendlier place to work. Most people don't care about compensation beyond their basic needs. They want a secure, safe, and happy place to work that pays a living wage. With UBI, places like that will do MUCH better because people won't have to work for bad employers to make a living wage. Often the major predictor of an employee leaving/staying isn't the compensation, but the management.
xboxnolifes 5y ago
> In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage). I don't think this is true. I am also of the opinion that UBI would decrease demand for low wage jobs, but I do not believe that the increased unemployment benefits due to COVID proves this. The increased unemployment benefits have an income cliff where they go away, so it is possible to return to work and end up making less than (or very close to) what you were making from unemployment. I certainly know a few people who would make barely any more money from returning to work compared to the unemployment benefits they receive.

lm28469 5y ago

> I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. Or you know, proper min wages and benefits: paid vacations, paid sick days, paid parental leaves, &c. Not treating people like cattle is a good starting point

Ericson2314 5y ago

No UBI is supposed to make people harder to hire, which is why employers are complaining the unimployment benefits are too generous.