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It's been... interesting watching Tesla migrate from their more oddball technical decisions to using the same tech as the rest of the industry. LFP is a really

by makomk 5y ago

It's been... interesting watching Tesla migrate from their more oddball technical decisions to using the same tech as the rest of the industry. LFP is a really conventional tech for stationary storage as well as vehicle applications with less demanding power-to-weight requirements. They also seem to have mostly switched from the AC motors that inspired their name to permanent magnet brushless motors like the rest of the car industry.

Reason077 5y ago
I'd agree that LFP is becoming conventional in stationary storage, but it's still relatively unusual in passenger vehicles outside of China. As far as I know, Tesla is unique amongst "western" automakers in using LFP cells in some of its cars.
- zrobotics 5y ago
  The Wheego LIFE [0] was built with a lithium iron phosphate battery back in 2011. The body shell was Chinese, but the electric part of the car was built in the US. Apparently it was a crap car, but tesla definitely isn't the first US company to produce a car with lithium iron batteries. That said, chemistry has come a long ways, the Wheego is more like a hotrodded golf cart than an actual car. That was the norm for 2011 though. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/eco-nomics/2012/03/14/can-tiny-wheego-company-win-the-electric-car-race/?sh=3a87b9b14a87 https://www.forbes.com/sites/eco-nomics/2012/03/14/can-tiny-...
ajross 5y ago
Conventional wisdom is that grid storage product was offered because battery production was outstripping what they could ship in cars at the time. Remember that heavy industry isn't like software, you don't get to Just Decide to match the product to the market and switch when it makes sense. You make a bet years in advance on resource contracts and factory capacity, and if the needles don't match you need to find some way to generate revenue from what you actually have, not what you want to produce. But yes: LiFePO4 has a high internal resistance (which is bad for applications with high current loads) and somewhat poor energy density (bad for mobile applications), but is significantly cheaper at scale due to the elimination of Cobalt and has an absolutely massive cell durability advantage (GREAT for grid storage). But you won't see phosphate batteries in anything but budget/commuter EVs. They aren't something Tesla is going to bet on for their main production choices, but absolutely something you'd expect to see them optimize as they scale.
- Reason077 5y ago
  > "But you won't see phosphate batteries in anything but budget/commuter EVs." I'm not sure about that. Elon Musk said on the most recent Tesla earnings call that he expects the industry to shift heavily towards LFP over time. Obviously the cost savings and cobalt avoidance are a significant reason, but LFP has some other advantages. Tesla's LFP Model 3 SR+ actually has slightly more range and faster charging than the NCMA version, at the cost of about 100 kg extra weight. Plus you can charge LFP to 100% every time without having to worry about accelerated battery degradation.

by makomk 5y ago

Reason077 5y ago

I'd agree that LFP is becoming conventional in stationary storage, but it's still relatively unusual in passenger vehicles outside of China. As far as I know, Tesla is unique amongst "western" automakers in using LFP cells in some of its cars.

zrobotics 5y ago
The Wheego LIFE [0] was built with a lithium iron phosphate battery back in 2011. The body shell was Chinese, but the electric part of the car was built in the US. Apparently it was a crap car, but tesla definitely isn't the first US company to produce a car with lithium iron batteries. That said, chemistry has come a long ways, the Wheego is more like a hotrodded golf cart than an actual car. That was the norm for 2011 though. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/eco-nomics/2012/03/14/can-tiny-wheego-company-win-the-electric-car-race/?sh=3a87b9b14a87 https://www.forbes.com/sites/eco-nomics/2012/03/14/can-tiny-...

ajross 5y ago

Conventional wisdom is that grid storage product was offered because battery production was outstripping what they could ship in cars at the time. Remember that heavy industry isn't like software, you don't get to Just Decide to match the product to the market and switch when it makes sense. You make a bet years in advance on resource contracts and factory capacity, and if the needles don't match you need to find some way to generate revenue from what you actually have, not what you want to produce. But yes: LiFePO4 has a high internal resistance (which is bad for applications with high current loads) and somewhat poor energy density (bad for mobile applications), but is significantly cheaper at scale due to the elimination of Cobalt and has an absolutely massive cell durability advantage (GREAT for grid storage). But you won't see phosphate batteries in anything but budget/commuter EVs. They aren't something Tesla is going to bet on for their main production choices, but absolutely something you'd expect to see them optimize as they scale.

Reason077 5y ago
> "But you won't see phosphate batteries in anything but budget/commuter EVs." I'm not sure about that. Elon Musk said on the most recent Tesla earnings call that he expects the industry to shift heavily towards LFP over time. Obviously the cost savings and cobalt avoidance are a significant reason, but LFP has some other advantages. Tesla's LFP Model 3 SR+ actually has slightly more range and faster charging than the NCMA version, at the cost of about 100 kg extra weight. Plus you can charge LFP to 100% every time without having to worry about accelerated battery degradation.