15 ms·

Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

77 points by minikites 5y ago

andrewclunn 5y ago
Would be a real shame if there was an employment gap on your resume, just because you went to prison for a year...
perfunctory 5y ago
> ... as bosses refuse to raise wages to attract employees I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. It levels the playing field for everybody. The problem with the current job market is that the negotiation power is not symmetrical.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  It's not clear that UBI would make negotiation power symmetrical per se, but if it were placed at a high enough value to take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - BrianOnHN 5y ago
    > take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless. Who could consciously down vote this? -1 to HN perceived morality.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. To which problem? A UBI will obviously mean more income for those stuck in low wage jobs. But a UBI will definitely not help attract employees to low wage positions. In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The problem of undesirable work being low wage due to people being born to the parents they were born to.
  - foxyv 5y ago
    Maybe UBI will drill into business leaders heads that they need to either: a) Make a better workplace that people don't hate coming to. b) Make the wages compensate enough for the terrible environment they have created. With a UBI, managers would no longer be under the illusion that "They will eventually come crawling back when they run out of money."
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      The upper income deciles will hate it though since a lot of their quality of life comes from the bottom deciles not having a better option, and hence working for lower prices. As those prices rise, the higher deciles will have to reduce consumption. Should be interesting to see it play out politically.
      - dahfizz 5y ago
        Not to mention the fact that the upper income deciles are the ones writing the UBI checks...
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      I think that will happen in some cases, but we need to be prepared for the reality that wages can't increase everywhere. Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages. You may think that's a good thing, but you can't just say "Those rich businesses will just cough up more money". That won't always be the case.
      - sofixa 5y ago
        > Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages Or they can increase prices to match their increased salary expenditures and stay in business.
- lm28469 5y ago
  > I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. Or you know, proper min wages and benefits: paid vacations, paid sick days, paid parental leaves, &c. Not treating people like cattle is a good starting point
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  No UBI is supposed to make people harder to hire, which is why employers are complaining the unimployment benefits are too generous.
relax88 5y ago
The idea that there can be a labour shortage in an industry that does not require specialized skills, at a time in history where capital has more power than ever is a total joke.
- postingawayonhn 5y ago
  If there is a shortage of labour surely it is to be expected that employees will have more bargaining power and move into higher paying and more 'respectable' jobs?
  - relax88 5y ago
    Not if you use the prison population and lobby Congress to import more cheap foreign labour so that you don’t have to increase wages. Which is entirely my point.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  People still can't afford to work jobs that won't pay for their food and shelter. Prisoners, or any other slaves, are a great solution.
  - tux3 5y ago
    Has slavery not been abolished in Northern America? If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? Wikipedia says things like the death penalty still exists in half of US states, but I don't know the numbers for states using captive workers.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Slavery as a punishment for a crime is legal federally, ie, in all of the US.
    - tantalor 5y ago
      Slavery is still allowed in US as punishment for crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
echopurity 5y ago
A primary purpose of the 13th amendment is the preservation of slave labor through prison.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  To call "preservation of slave labor through prison" a "primary purpose" of the 13th amendment is just insane. Sentencing people to hard labor for certain crimes had been done for thousands of years by that point. The prison carve out was a reflection of the fact that the states passing the amendment were interested in getting rid of commercial slavery as it existed in the south, not throwing a wrench into their own prison systems. The idea that some fraction of prisoners would be doing hard labor for the duration of their sentence or some fraction was completely (edit:)uncontroversial status quo at the time. Contrast with lifetime enslavement for commercial purposes which was was controversial enough to fight a war over.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Wasn't commercial slavery also status quo? Something being status quo is not good reason for it to remain so. The government version of "slavery for me but not for thee"
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      My point was that prison labor was uncontroversial and they weren't trying to screw with it whereas they were willing to go to war over slavery.
  - thescriptkiddie 5y ago
    After the civil war, southern states imprisoned countless former slaves on trumped up charges, many of whom were then rented out to plantation owners.
  - danShumway 5y ago
    I'm not sure I follow, it sounds to me like you're agreeing with GP. Slavery overall was status quo. America passed an amendment to end slavery, but added some exceptions to preserve slave labor for criminals, because as you state: > the states passing the amendment were interested in getting rid of commercial slavery as it existed in the south, not throwing a wrench into their own prison systems They wanted to end the subset of slavery that was practiced in the South without ending slavery overall.
trasz 5y ago
When you maintain a form of slavery, like US does, it’s silly to expect companies to not try profiting on it.
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  Gotta love the moral clarity of "companies".
  - BrianOnHN 5y ago
    We need to stop placing so many restrictions on companies, for the good of the economy!
twic 5y ago
Based and Tropico 6 pilled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF56tMRgeL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF56tMRgeL8
paulpauper 5y ago
It's almost as if most of those jobs that req. degrees can be done even by uneducated prisoners, thanks to a cool invention called job training.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I don’t think any of the jobs mentioned require degrees.
flerovium 5y ago
The first hit on google for "prisoners with jobs": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prz4jfSX_Qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prz4jfSX_Qg
edoceo 5y ago
No labor shortage. It's a wage shortage. I'm certain if the pay went up, there would be applicants.
- fredstarr 5y ago
  You nailed it 100%!!! There's no other way to put it :)
- gruez 5y ago
  "No housing shortage. It's a rent shortage. I'm certain if the rent went up, there would be more rentals. " No, the point isn't that the housing shortage isn't real, it's that whether it's a labor shortage or a wage shortage is in the eye of the beholder.
  - edoceo 5y ago
    That's backwards.
- mjburgess 5y ago
  How does pay go up? You assume there's an infinite profit margin available for decreasing. Many industries operate at a few percent profit.
  - Sabinus 5y ago
    Increase costs. Everyone should be able to afford labor-heavy industries costs going up since consumers have so much excess capital from cheap Chinese goods.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Decrease in income/wealth gap. People on the upper rungs of the ladder have to sacrifice.
    - mjburgess 5y ago
      You realise there are fewer of them? There's no money there either, after a division.
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
> people currently or formerly in prison First of all, this lumps two groups together. Second, isn't it kind of "good" if employers become more willing to hire people with criminal records? They have a hell of a time finding jobs, which gets in the way of social reintegration. > a Waste Management Services executive discussed hiring immigrants to fill commercial driver’s license positions Oh no! Hiring immigrants! ... What are we supposed to do, shut them out of the job market to form parallel societies in the Banlieues? How is this in The Guardian? It's Bannonesque "Reserve Army of Capital" stuff.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  > First of all, this lumps two groups together. Absolutely. > Bannonesque Yes, but our immigration structure should be fixed so higher skill higher wage immigrants get in first. The way we do immigration now is pretty fucked and makes Bannonesque stuff way less obviously false than it ought to be. Still, absolutely agree this is a weird headline, and too much mixing of things.
- brightstep 5y ago
  They're not willing to hire ex-cons for full pay and benefits. These prisoners are essentially slaves, no freedom, no benefits, no time off, barely any pay.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    I see that now: > In New York City, construction industry employers recruit recently released prisoners who must seek and maintain employment as a condition of their release from prison. Why can't an ex-con go bum off their family? Or become a mendicant holy man? Or become a novelist, who in 9/10 cases is just unemployed, but in 1/10 earns money off "My Life in Lockup: The Joe Blow Story" (popular in the prison library)? We should be making formal employment less necessary, not more.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
If this is done well it is actually a good thing. I have family recently out of prison and the lack of skills to re-enter the work force is sad, it’s almost like it is built to create reoffenders. The more work opportunities the better, just pay them reasonably.
- minikites 5y ago
  It doesn't work that way: >She noted many private companies that hire prison workers will not employ them after they are released and will not hire job applicants with criminal records. She added that these programs perpetuate mass incarceration.
  - anthony_d 5y ago
    "She" is one person making an throw away comment. Hardly proof that "It doesn't work that way".
    - danShumway 5y ago
      California recently had to new pass a law allowing prisoners to keep working in the same industry they were working in while incarcerated[0]. Before that, they legally weren't allowed to continue working in the same industry after they were released. And even that law doesn't actually give them the right to continue to work, it just gives a subset of them the right to petition to continue to be allowed to work -- it's a very limited band-aide that doesn't actually solve the underlying problem. And this stuff is happening at a state level, it's not enough to point at a few isolated companies to claim that they're they problem. I just think it's really hard to argue that our current prison labor system is working well. We can't realistically talk about training prisoners unless we take criminal records out of hiring processes and get rid of laws that bar prisoners from finding work once they're out of prison. [0]: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912193742/california-bill-clears-path-for-ex-inmates-to-become-firefighters https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912193742/california-bill-cle...
      - 5y ago
Ericson2314 5y ago
Prison labor is fucked, but companies' greed overpowering their prejudice towards ex-cons is actually what we want! https://rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/RI_FullEmployment_Brief_202107.pdf https://rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/RI... C.f. WWII when black people got way more jobs leading to more prosperity and power and ultimately the civil rights movement. The "labor shortage" is simply progress back towards the fast-growing economy and less lopsided labor market we used to have. Better growth raises all boats, but capitalists winge about their loss of relative power. This why I say it's a great lie capitalists actually like growth. They actually prefer a doldrum economy with an unproductive basset bubble.
NonContro 5y ago
A lot of these labour shortages will unwind when the eviction moratoriums and COVID-era Federal unemployment payments expire. I guess businesses just need to hold out until then.
mullingitover 5y ago
> Some employers around the US are responding to perceived worker shortages in their industries by pursuing cheap sources of labor, such as people currently or formerly in prison. The US is using slave labor and at the same time sanctioning China for...using slave labor.
AndrewSChapman 5y ago
I'm thinking there should never be a conflict of interest between a person and commercial enterprise. If you allow prisons to enforce slavery, then you create a financial incentive to get more prisoners and to keep people in prison for longer. That's pretty messed up and is highly likely to lead to corruption and injustice.

77 points by minikites 5y ago

Would be a real shame if there was an employment gap on your resume, just because you went to prison for a year...

> ... as bosses refuse to raise wages to attract employees I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. It levels the playing field for everybody. The problem with the current job market is that the negotiation power is not symmetrical.

shadowgovt 5y ago
It's not clear that UBI would make negotiation power symmetrical per se, but if it were placed at a high enough value to take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- BrianOnHN 5y ago
  > take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless. Who could consciously down vote this? -1 to HN perceived morality.
dahfizz 5y ago
> I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. To which problem? A UBI will obviously mean more income for those stuck in low wage jobs. But a UBI will definitely not help attract employees to low wage positions. In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The problem of undesirable work being low wage due to people being born to the parents they were born to.
- foxyv 5y ago
  Maybe UBI will drill into business leaders heads that they need to either: a) Make a better workplace that people don't hate coming to. b) Make the wages compensate enough for the terrible environment they have created. With a UBI, managers would no longer be under the illusion that "They will eventually come crawling back when they run out of money."
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The upper income deciles will hate it though since a lot of their quality of life comes from the bottom deciles not having a better option, and hence working for lower prices. As those prices rise, the higher deciles will have to reduce consumption. Should be interesting to see it play out politically.
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      Not to mention the fact that the upper income deciles are the ones writing the UBI checks...
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    I think that will happen in some cases, but we need to be prepared for the reality that wages can't increase everywhere. Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages. You may think that's a good thing, but you can't just say "Those rich businesses will just cough up more money". That won't always be the case.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      > Lots of restaurants and grocery stores will go out of business before they can double wages Or they can increase prices to match their increased salary expenditures and stay in business.
lm28469 5y ago
> I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. Or you know, proper min wages and benefits: paid vacations, paid sick days, paid parental leaves, &c. Not treating people like cattle is a good starting point
Ericson2314 5y ago
No UBI is supposed to make people harder to hire, which is why employers are complaining the unimployment benefits are too generous.

relax88 5y ago

The idea that there can be a labour shortage in an industry that does not require specialized skills, at a time in history where capital has more power than ever is a total joke.

postingawayonhn 5y ago
If there is a shortage of labour surely it is to be expected that employees will have more bargaining power and move into higher paying and more 'respectable' jobs?
- relax88 5y ago
  Not if you use the prison population and lobby Congress to import more cheap foreign labour so that you don’t have to increase wages. Which is entirely my point.
pessimizer 5y ago
People still can't afford to work jobs that won't pay for their food and shelter. Prisoners, or any other slaves, are a great solution.
- tux3 5y ago
  Has slavery not been abolished in Northern America? If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? Wikipedia says things like the death penalty still exists in half of US states, but I don't know the numbers for states using captive workers.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Slavery as a punishment for a crime is legal federally, ie, in all of the US.
  - tantalor 5y ago
    Slavery is still allowed in US as punishment for crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...

echopurity 5y ago

A primary purpose of the 13th amendment is the preservation of slave labor through prison.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
To call "preservation of slave labor through prison" a "primary purpose" of the 13th amendment is just insane. Sentencing people to hard labor for certain crimes had been done for thousands of years by that point. The prison carve out was a reflection of the fact that the states passing the amendment were interested in getting rid of commercial slavery as it existed in the south, not throwing a wrench into their own prison systems. The idea that some fraction of prisoners would be doing hard labor for the duration of their sentence or some fraction was completely (edit:)uncontroversial status quo at the time. Contrast with lifetime enslavement for commercial purposes which was was controversial enough to fight a war over.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Wasn't commercial slavery also status quo? Something being status quo is not good reason for it to remain so. The government version of "slavery for me but not for thee"
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    My point was that prison labor was uncontroversial and they weren't trying to screw with it whereas they were willing to go to war over slavery.
- thescriptkiddie 5y ago
  After the civil war, southern states imprisoned countless former slaves on trumped up charges, many of whom were then rented out to plantation owners.
- danShumway 5y ago
  I'm not sure I follow, it sounds to me like you're agreeing with GP. Slavery overall was status quo. America passed an amendment to end slavery, but added some exceptions to preserve slave labor for criminals, because as you state: > the states passing the amendment were interested in getting rid of commercial slavery as it existed in the south, not throwing a wrench into their own prison systems They wanted to end the subset of slavery that was practiced in the South without ending slavery overall.

trasz 5y ago

When you maintain a form of slavery, like US does, it’s silly to expect companies to not try profiting on it.

JKCalhoun 5y ago
Gotta love the moral clarity of "companies".
- BrianOnHN 5y ago
  We need to stop placing so many restrictions on companies, for the good of the economy!

twic 5y ago

Based and Tropico 6 pilled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF56tMRgeL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF56tMRgeL8

paulpauper 5y ago

It's almost as if most of those jobs that req. degrees can be done even by uneducated prisoners, thanks to a cool invention called job training.

MattGaiser 5y ago
I don’t think any of the jobs mentioned require degrees.

flerovium 5y ago

The first hit on google for "prisoners with jobs": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prz4jfSX_Qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prz4jfSX_Qg

edoceo 5y ago

No labor shortage. It's a wage shortage. I'm certain if the pay went up, there would be applicants.

fredstarr 5y ago
You nailed it 100%!!! There's no other way to put it :)
gruez 5y ago
"No housing shortage. It's a rent shortage. I'm certain if the rent went up, there would be more rentals. " No, the point isn't that the housing shortage isn't real, it's that whether it's a labor shortage or a wage shortage is in the eye of the beholder.
- edoceo 5y ago
  That's backwards.
mjburgess 5y ago
How does pay go up? You assume there's an infinite profit margin available for decreasing. Many industries operate at a few percent profit.
- Sabinus 5y ago
  Increase costs. Everyone should be able to afford labor-heavy industries costs going up since consumers have so much excess capital from cheap Chinese goods.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Decrease in income/wealth gap. People on the upper rungs of the ladder have to sacrifice.
  - mjburgess 5y ago
    You realise there are fewer of them? There's no money there either, after a division.

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

> people currently or formerly in prison First of all, this lumps two groups together. Second, isn't it kind of "good" if employers become more willing to hire people with criminal records? They have a hell of a time finding jobs, which gets in the way of social reintegration. > a Waste Management Services executive discussed hiring immigrants to fill commercial driver’s license positions Oh no! Hiring immigrants! ... What are we supposed to do, shut them out of the job market to form parallel societies in the Banlieues? How is this in The Guardian? It's Bannonesque "Reserve Army of Capital" stuff.

Ericson2314 5y ago
> First of all, this lumps two groups together. Absolutely. > Bannonesque Yes, but our immigration structure should be fixed so higher skill higher wage immigrants get in first. The way we do immigration now is pretty fucked and makes Bannonesque stuff way less obviously false than it ought to be. Still, absolutely agree this is a weird headline, and too much mixing of things.
brightstep 5y ago
They're not willing to hire ex-cons for full pay and benefits. These prisoners are essentially slaves, no freedom, no benefits, no time off, barely any pay.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  I see that now: > In New York City, construction industry employers recruit recently released prisoners who must seek and maintain employment as a condition of their release from prison. Why can't an ex-con go bum off their family? Or become a mendicant holy man? Or become a novelist, who in 9/10 cases is just unemployed, but in 1/10 earns money off "My Life in Lockup: The Joe Blow Story" (popular in the prison library)? We should be making formal employment less necessary, not more.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

If this is done well it is actually a good thing. I have family recently out of prison and the lack of skills to re-enter the work force is sad, it’s almost like it is built to create reoffenders. The more work opportunities the better, just pay them reasonably.

minikites 5y ago
It doesn't work that way: >She noted many private companies that hire prison workers will not employ them after they are released and will not hire job applicants with criminal records. She added that these programs perpetuate mass incarceration.
- anthony_d 5y ago
  "She" is one person making an throw away comment. Hardly proof that "It doesn't work that way".
  - danShumway 5y ago
    California recently had to new pass a law allowing prisoners to keep working in the same industry they were working in while incarcerated[0]. Before that, they legally weren't allowed to continue working in the same industry after they were released. And even that law doesn't actually give them the right to continue to work, it just gives a subset of them the right to petition to continue to be allowed to work -- it's a very limited band-aide that doesn't actually solve the underlying problem. And this stuff is happening at a state level, it's not enough to point at a few isolated companies to claim that they're they problem. I just think it's really hard to argue that our current prison labor system is working well. We can't realistically talk about training prisoners unless we take criminal records out of hiring processes and get rid of laws that bar prisoners from finding work once they're out of prison. [0]: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912193742/california-bill-clears-path-for-ex-inmates-to-become-firefighters https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912193742/california-bill-cle...
    - 5y ago

Ericson2314 5y ago

Prison labor is fucked, but companies' greed overpowering their prejudice towards ex-cons is actually what we want! https://rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/RI_FullEmployment_Brief_202107.pdf https://rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/RI... C.f. WWII when black people got way more jobs leading to more prosperity and power and ultimately the civil rights movement. The "labor shortage" is simply progress back towards the fast-growing economy and less lopsided labor market we used to have. Better growth raises all boats, but capitalists winge about their loss of relative power. This why I say it's a great lie capitalists actually like growth. They actually prefer a doldrum economy with an unproductive basset bubble.

NonContro 5y ago

A lot of these labour shortages will unwind when the eviction moratoriums and COVID-era Federal unemployment payments expire. I guess businesses just need to hold out until then.

mullingitover 5y ago

> Some employers around the US are responding to perceived worker shortages in their industries by pursuing cheap sources of labor, such as people currently or formerly in prison. The US is using slave labor and at the same time sanctioning China for...using slave labor.

AndrewSChapman 5y ago

I'm thinking there should never be a conflict of interest between a person and commercial enterprise. If you allow prisons to enforce slavery, then you create a financial incentive to get more prisoners and to keep people in prison for longer. That's pretty messed up and is highly likely to lead to corruption and injustice.