5 ms·

In 100,000 years when 12pm is in the middle of the night, no one is going to care. It will have been that way for all of living memory, and the fact that noon u

In 100,000 years when 12pm is in the middle of the night, no one is going to care. It will have been that way for all of living memory, and the fact that noon used to be midday will be nothing more than a historical curiosity. The drift is far too slow for anyone to notice.

icedchai 5y ago
I've met grown adults that think 12 PM is the middle of the night already. (They don't understand PM vs AM.)
- JadeNB 5y ago
  > I've met grown adults that think 12 PM is the middle of the night already. (They don't understand PM vs AM.) That's because it doesn't make any sense to describe the middle of the day by '12 PM', since 'PM' should mean "after midday". To be sure we have conventions about this, but not knowing those arbitrary conventions is no reason to think that people don't understand the concept. I think better usage is 12 noon and 12 midnight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noo... )—though that still requires further disambiguation at midnight (is "midnight on August 3" between August 2 and 3, or between August 3 and 4? I don't know whether there's a common disambiguation here, as with 12 n versus 12 m).
  - nybble41 5y ago
    The inconsistency is in using 12 instead of zero, which results in four discontinuities per day (12:59 AM → 1:00 AM, 11:59 AM → 12:00 PM, 12:59 PM → 1:00 PM, 11:59 PM → 12:00 AM). The times should be divided into 0:00 AM through 11:59 AM and 0:00 PM through 11:59 PM so that the hours wrap around at the AM/PM boundary, not one hour later.
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      > The times should be divided into 0:00 AM through 11:59 AM and 0:00 PM through 11:59 PM so that the hours wrap around at the AM/PM boundary, not one hour later. Sure, although, if we're re-defining how people tell time anyway, we might as well use a 24-hour clock and so avoid the need for AM/PM at all; and, even if we do that, there is still, inevitably, the confusion about on what day 00:00 AM falls. My point was just that not knowing that "12 PM" means noon is a matter of not being aware of an arbitrary convention, rather than of not understanding the concept of AM vs. PM. (Indeed, arguably it is a matter of understanding their meaning all too well!)
      - a1369209993 5y ago
        > the confusion about on what day 00:00 AM falls. Not so much actually: 00:00 is on the day that is starting, 24:00 is on the day that is ending.
        JadeNB 5y ago
        > Not so much actually: 00:00 is on the day that is starting, 24:00 is on the day that is ending. That makes a lot of sense!
  - iso1210 5y ago
    Time goes 00:00:00 through 23:59:59 Except when leapseconds come along and make it 23:59:60 And daylight saving skips an hour, or repeats it. AM and PM are really anachronisms though, I don't remember the last time I've ever seen "4pm" written down in normal life.
    - icedchai 5y ago
      The average person doesn't use 24 hour/military time. Maybe in the tech world.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > The average person doesn't use 24 hour/military time. Maybe in the tech world. True in the US (and IIRC the Anglophone world more generally), but AFAIK 24-hour is more commonly used outside of military/technical domains in many other countries.
      - iso1210 5y ago
        Perhaps in your country. Iny the vast majority of countries I've been to, opening hours on shops, timetable, TV schedules, phones, etc are 24 hours. Have been for decades. UK TV schedule: https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl6p https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl6p France opening hours: https://www.malathronas.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_6720.jpg https://www.malathronas.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_6720.jpg Thai train timetable: https://teakdoor.com/images/north.gif https://teakdoor.com/images/north.gif
        icedchai 5y ago
        Yes, it is different in the US.
    - deathanatos 5y ago
      Every major OS displays time w/ AM/PM? I just checked my OS X machine, it has it. My Linux machine has it, though I grant that among the many DEs for Linux, some might not use it. (I use MATE, a fork of GNOME 2, for reference.) And I've Googled a screenshot of Windows, which seems to still use it. My phone, microwave, and stove, I guess, seem to presume I know whether it is morning or not.
  - ajmurmann 5y ago
    "I think better usage is 12 noon and 12 midnight" Or maybe 12:00 vs 00:00
  - icedchai 5y ago
    Midnight can be confusing. Some folks work around that by stating "12:01 AM on <date>..." instead of midnight. 12 PM = noon is something I remember learning in kindergarden, and should be common knowledge for most adults in the US.
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      > 12 PM = noon is something I remember learning in kindergarden, and should be common knowledge for most adults in the US. Well, maybe, although assuming a commonality between others' education and mine is always dangerous; but I've got way more respect for someone who understands a concept but doesn't know about an arbitrary exception to it, than for someone who understands a pile of arbitrary rules and doesn't know how to fit them to any conceptual framework.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > That's because it doesn't make any sense to describe the middle of the day by '12 PM', since 'PM' should mean "after midday". I think that explanation fails because, IME, people who know that “PM” means “post meridiem” which means “after midday” are more, not less, likely to also know that 12:00 PM is noon than those to whom PM is just an arbitrary marker.

icedchai 5y ago

I've met grown adults that think 12 PM is the middle of the night already. (They don't understand PM vs AM.)

JadeNB 5y ago
> I've met grown adults that think 12 PM is the middle of the night already. (They don't understand PM vs AM.) That's because it doesn't make any sense to describe the middle of the day by '12 PM', since 'PM' should mean "after midday". To be sure we have conventions about this, but not knowing those arbitrary conventions is no reason to think that people don't understand the concept. I think better usage is 12 noon and 12 midnight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noo... )—though that still requires further disambiguation at midnight (is "midnight on August 3" between August 2 and 3, or between August 3 and 4? I don't know whether there's a common disambiguation here, as with 12 n versus 12 m).
- nybble41 5y ago
  The inconsistency is in using 12 instead of zero, which results in four discontinuities per day (12:59 AM → 1:00 AM, 11:59 AM → 12:00 PM, 12:59 PM → 1:00 PM, 11:59 PM → 12:00 AM). The times should be divided into 0:00 AM through 11:59 AM and 0:00 PM through 11:59 PM so that the hours wrap around at the AM/PM boundary, not one hour later.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > The times should be divided into 0:00 AM through 11:59 AM and 0:00 PM through 11:59 PM so that the hours wrap around at the AM/PM boundary, not one hour later. Sure, although, if we're re-defining how people tell time anyway, we might as well use a 24-hour clock and so avoid the need for AM/PM at all; and, even if we do that, there is still, inevitably, the confusion about on what day 00:00 AM falls. My point was just that not knowing that "12 PM" means noon is a matter of not being aware of an arbitrary convention, rather than of not understanding the concept of AM vs. PM. (Indeed, arguably it is a matter of understanding their meaning all too well!)
    - a1369209993 5y ago
      > the confusion about on what day 00:00 AM falls. Not so much actually: 00:00 is on the day that is starting, 24:00 is on the day that is ending.
      - JadeNB 5y ago
        > Not so much actually: 00:00 is on the day that is starting, 24:00 is on the day that is ending. That makes a lot of sense!
- iso1210 5y ago
  Time goes 00:00:00 through 23:59:59 Except when leapseconds come along and make it 23:59:60 And daylight saving skips an hour, or repeats it. AM and PM are really anachronisms though, I don't remember the last time I've ever seen "4pm" written down in normal life.
  - icedchai 5y ago
    The average person doesn't use 24 hour/military time. Maybe in the tech world.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > The average person doesn't use 24 hour/military time. Maybe in the tech world. True in the US (and IIRC the Anglophone world more generally), but AFAIK 24-hour is more commonly used outside of military/technical domains in many other countries.
    - iso1210 5y ago
      Perhaps in your country. Iny the vast majority of countries I've been to, opening hours on shops, timetable, TV schedules, phones, etc are 24 hours. Have been for decades. UK TV schedule: https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl6p https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl6p France opening hours: https://www.malathronas.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_6720.jpg https://www.malathronas.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_6720.jpg Thai train timetable: https://teakdoor.com/images/north.gif https://teakdoor.com/images/north.gif
      - icedchai 5y ago
        Yes, it is different in the US.
  - deathanatos 5y ago
    Every major OS displays time w/ AM/PM? I just checked my OS X machine, it has it. My Linux machine has it, though I grant that among the many DEs for Linux, some might not use it. (I use MATE, a fork of GNOME 2, for reference.) And I've Googled a screenshot of Windows, which seems to still use it. My phone, microwave, and stove, I guess, seem to presume I know whether it is morning or not.
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  "I think better usage is 12 noon and 12 midnight" Or maybe 12:00 vs 00:00
- icedchai 5y ago
  Midnight can be confusing. Some folks work around that by stating "12:01 AM on <date>..." instead of midnight. 12 PM = noon is something I remember learning in kindergarden, and should be common knowledge for most adults in the US.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > 12 PM = noon is something I remember learning in kindergarden, and should be common knowledge for most adults in the US. Well, maybe, although assuming a commonality between others' education and mine is always dangerous; but I've got way more respect for someone who understands a concept but doesn't know about an arbitrary exception to it, than for someone who understands a pile of arbitrary rules and doesn't know how to fit them to any conceptual framework.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > That's because it doesn't make any sense to describe the middle of the day by '12 PM', since 'PM' should mean "after midday". I think that explanation fails because, IME, people who know that “PM” means “post meridiem” which means “after midday” are more, not less, likely to also know that 12:00 PM is noon than those to whom PM is just an arbitrary marker.