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The Ethiopian in Israel being injected with contraceptive without consent, while not a vaccine in itself, didn't help either: https://www.theguardian.com/world

The Ethiopian in Israel being injected with contraceptive without consent, while not a vaccine in itself, didn't help either: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-wome... The COVID crisis is as much a trust crisis than a health crisis. The internet made the people deeply aware of how little the people in power actually cares about the average citizen or customer, and now that we really, really need the mass to have confidence in the institutions, it's getting hard to play the "for real, we are good this times guys" card.

blacktriangle 5y ago
Given all you know about how unworthy of trust these institutions are now, why do you think this time is any different?
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  I don't know, and I weight the odds and wage a bet given the various sources of information I have and my knowledge of human nature. Unlike most of my vaccine enthusiast friends, I don't blame people that want to avoid it, I get the sentiment. I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, but I have made the appointment. Maybe it will turn out to be the wrong decision, however I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. And that's all what we can do.
  - dennis_jeeves 5y ago
    >I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, How did you become a strong proponent in the first place?
  - forcry 5y ago
    >I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. You would be really surprised at how much of one's knowledge sits on assumptions and believes that are not well founded. It is like how grownups are sometimes stumped by the questions of a curious kid, which make it clear that somethings they thought they knew, wasn't so. This was my experience, and like most people, I used to trust authorities and scientists, and "studies". This is the position where we all start, and diverge from it as we become more aware about the politics involved and how the incentives are aligned, how powerful media, how research is funded and can be flawed, how peer review "appear to work" when in-fact it does not in practice etc, all of which are further confirmed by historical observations.
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      > You would be really surprised at how much of one's knowledge sits on assumptions and believes that are not well founded I would not, I am perfectly aware of it, just like I'm aware I'm not able to go through walls. And now what ? Knowing it doesn't change the fact I have to go through the door anyway. The best we can do is all we can do, there is nothing else, your point is kinda moot.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  when you live through enough you know that nothing in life is 100% other than death and taxes. it's all probabilities. If you want to think the government is injecting nanites then go ahead. Fed government has a decent history the past 40 years or so. I trust them more than I do most people other than my close friends and family. I've seen people die from covid, it's not a hoax and I don't believe the vaccine is either.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    Most people hesitating to vaccinate don't believe it's a hoax, but rather believe that if something goes wrong by accident, which in an accelerated procedure on a complex system in the middle of a crisis is not unheard of, the people in charge won't disclose what we need to know, take responsabilities or the make the right decisions. Despite going to get vaccinated, I don't think it's an unfair line of reasoning.
howaboutnope 5y ago
> The COVID crisis is as much a trust crisis than a health crisis Noam Chomsky pointed that out as early as a year ago [0], but most people who really should hear it just don't want to it seems, content with shaking their heads and othering. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiCeqySVhCE&t=1255s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiCeqySVhCE&t=1255s
beaugunderson 5y ago
Worth reading about the forced sterilization of refugees with HIV at Guantánamo Bay in 1991 as well: > The blood of these refugees had tested positive for HIV, and Camp Bulkeley, where they were detained, was set up as what Michael Ratner calls “the world’s first and only detention camp for refugees with HIV.” Subsequently, the women in that facility who were found to be HIV positive were subjected to forced permanent or semipermanent sterilization.

blacktriangle 5y ago

Given all you know about how unworthy of trust these institutions are now, why do you think this time is any different?

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
I don't know, and I weight the odds and wage a bet given the various sources of information I have and my knowledge of human nature. Unlike most of my vaccine enthusiast friends, I don't blame people that want to avoid it, I get the sentiment. I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, but I have made the appointment. Maybe it will turn out to be the wrong decision, however I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. And that's all what we can do.
- dennis_jeeves 5y ago
  >I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, How did you become a strong proponent in the first place?
- forcry 5y ago
  >I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. You would be really surprised at how much of one's knowledge sits on assumptions and believes that are not well founded. It is like how grownups are sometimes stumped by the questions of a curious kid, which make it clear that somethings they thought they knew, wasn't so. This was my experience, and like most people, I used to trust authorities and scientists, and "studies". This is the position where we all start, and diverge from it as we become more aware about the politics involved and how the incentives are aligned, how powerful media, how research is funded and can be flawed, how peer review "appear to work" when in-fact it does not in practice etc, all of which are further confirmed by historical observations.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    > You would be really surprised at how much of one's knowledge sits on assumptions and believes that are not well founded I would not, I am perfectly aware of it, just like I'm aware I'm not able to go through walls. And now what ? Knowing it doesn't change the fact I have to go through the door anyway. The best we can do is all we can do, there is nothing else, your point is kinda moot.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
when you live through enough you know that nothing in life is 100% other than death and taxes. it's all probabilities. If you want to think the government is injecting nanites then go ahead. Fed government has a decent history the past 40 years or so. I trust them more than I do most people other than my close friends and family. I've seen people die from covid, it's not a hoax and I don't believe the vaccine is either.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  Most people hesitating to vaccinate don't believe it's a hoax, but rather believe that if something goes wrong by accident, which in an accelerated procedure on a complex system in the middle of a crisis is not unheard of, the people in charge won't disclose what we need to know, take responsabilities or the make the right decisions. Despite going to get vaccinated, I don't think it's an unfair line of reasoning.

howaboutnope 5y ago

> The COVID crisis is as much a trust crisis than a health crisis Noam Chomsky pointed that out as early as a year ago [0], but most people who really should hear it just don't want to it seems, content with shaking their heads and othering. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiCeqySVhCE&t=1255s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiCeqySVhCE&t=1255s

beaugunderson 5y ago

Worth reading about the forced sterilization of refugees with HIV at Guantánamo Bay in 1991 as well: > The blood of these refugees had tested positive for HIV, and Camp Bulkeley, where they were detained, was set up as what Michael Ratner calls “the world’s first and only detention camp for refugees with HIV.” Subsequently, the women in that facility who were found to be HIV positive were subjected to forced permanent or semipermanent sterilization.