4 ms·

Why is this 2,000+ pages long? Why is it even expected from people to make anything out of so much text?

by hidden-spyder 5y ago

klysm 5y ago
I don’t think it is generally expected for people to make anything out of the text.
- ianai 5y ago
  It’s not too impossible to parse. I posted it hoping people would come together to interpret it. The actual text is pretty terse, but the formatting makes the text much longer than another text would be. If I could have written my college essays in this formatting those 10+ page essays would have amounted to maybe 2-3 pages of words. They make use of many call outs to existing law (for modifications of them) and other sections. The funding stuff is in the first few sections for the rest of the sections. Edit-in short, the formatting is a little intimidating at first, but it’s nothing a group of programmers and associated-skilled HN readers couldn’t tackle and fast.
  - em500 5y ago
    Is there a direct link to the bill? The posted link just gives me a WaPo paywall.
    - ianai 5y ago
      Does this work for you? https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/f0080fc4-2d31-485d-9dcd-1426a9946718/note/abf1b766-e095-4997-b441-0a0824db312c.#page=1 https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do... Edit- Here's the .gov source: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684...
      - pcdoodle 5y ago
        Thanks for the links. Trying to Ctrl-F a section number from the index does not bring up the section in the document. It almost seem intentional. Who has time to read the whole thing? I was interested in the vehicle per mile pilot program to see what the hell they are thinking.
        ianai 5y ago
        The second .gov link has hyperlinks. But yes it’s a bit obscure. Did you find the answer?
mkj 5y ago
$500 million of spending documented per page (avg) doesn't seem unreasonable?
specialist 5y ago
Law is code for society. Government is a fairly complex machine (organization). Imagine joining a team using an entire toolstack novel to you. Just takes time to onboard. As an activist, I got to know the laws, regulations, rules for my domain (federal, state, local). Utterly daunting, intimidating at first. Then over time, not so much. I also spent a lot of time "popularizing" my activism. Much like some authors popularize science. No one expects to read popular science books and then be able to work in the field. But good communication can distill all the craziness to key points. Same learning curve with every interesting domain.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Law is code for society. There are some similarities, but while this is a popular metaphor it is misleading. Government isn't a machine running code, its a bunch of people pursuing their own interests. Law is one means of establishing and communicating social expectations and consequences as a way of shaping incentive structure in society at large, including government, so that people pursuing their own interests act in “acceptable” ways, but it is very much not deterministic in operation.
  - specialist 5y ago
    It's just a metaphor. Complicated stuff is complicated. Dismissing policy work for its complicity is a oft used trope. > ...its a bunch of people pursuing their own interests. What org is immune to proxy fights thru code, rules, budgets? I've won a few internecine knife fights by shipping code first. (TBH, I lost most of these fights, by whatever means.)
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Dismissing policy work for its complicity is a oft used trope. Dismissing various forms of activism because “the law already handles that” is also a popular response, and the “law is code” meme reinforces it. As it does the misreading of laws that are superficially symmetric but don't apply in contexts of symmetric incentives, e.g., the DMCA safe harbors notice and counternotice provisions. > What org is immune to proxy fights thru code, rules, budgets? None. But machines running code are, hence one of the major problems of the “law is code” metaphor.

Why is this 2,000+ pages long? Why is it even expected from people to make anything out of so much text?

klysm 5y ago

I don’t think it is generally expected for people to make anything out of the text.

ianai 5y ago
It’s not too impossible to parse. I posted it hoping people would come together to interpret it. The actual text is pretty terse, but the formatting makes the text much longer than another text would be. If I could have written my college essays in this formatting those 10+ page essays would have amounted to maybe 2-3 pages of words. They make use of many call outs to existing law (for modifications of them) and other sections. The funding stuff is in the first few sections for the rest of the sections. Edit-in short, the formatting is a little intimidating at first, but it’s nothing a group of programmers and associated-skilled HN readers couldn’t tackle and fast.
- em500 5y ago
  Is there a direct link to the bill? The posted link just gives me a WaPo paywall.
  - ianai 5y ago
    Does this work for you? https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/f0080fc4-2d31-485d-9dcd-1426a9946718/note/abf1b766-e095-4997-b441-0a0824db312c.#page=1 https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do... Edit- Here's the .gov source: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684...
    - pcdoodle 5y ago
      Thanks for the links. Trying to Ctrl-F a section number from the index does not bring up the section in the document. It almost seem intentional. Who has time to read the whole thing? I was interested in the vehicle per mile pilot program to see what the hell they are thinking.
      - ianai 5y ago
        The second .gov link has hyperlinks. But yes it’s a bit obscure. Did you find the answer?

mkj 5y ago

$500 million of spending documented per page (avg) doesn't seem unreasonable?

specialist 5y ago

Law is code for society. Government is a fairly complex machine (organization). Imagine joining a team using an entire toolstack novel to you. Just takes time to onboard. As an activist, I got to know the laws, regulations, rules for my domain (federal, state, local). Utterly daunting, intimidating at first. Then over time, not so much. I also spent a lot of time "popularizing" my activism. Much like some authors popularize science. No one expects to read popular science books and then be able to work in the field. But good communication can distill all the craziness to key points. Same learning curve with every interesting domain.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Law is code for society. There are some similarities, but while this is a popular metaphor it is misleading. Government isn't a machine running code, its a bunch of people pursuing their own interests. Law is one means of establishing and communicating social expectations and consequences as a way of shaping incentive structure in society at large, including government, so that people pursuing their own interests act in “acceptable” ways, but it is very much not deterministic in operation.
- specialist 5y ago
  It's just a metaphor. Complicated stuff is complicated. Dismissing policy work for its complicity is a oft used trope. > ...its a bunch of people pursuing their own interests. What org is immune to proxy fights thru code, rules, budgets? I've won a few internecine knife fights by shipping code first. (TBH, I lost most of these fights, by whatever means.)
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Dismissing policy work for its complicity is a oft used trope. Dismissing various forms of activism because “the law already handles that” is also a popular response, and the “law is code” meme reinforces it. As it does the misreading of laws that are superficially symmetric but don't apply in contexts of symmetric incentives, e.g., the DMCA safe harbors notice and counternotice provisions. > What org is immune to proxy fights thru code, rules, budgets? None. But machines running code are, hence one of the major problems of the “law is code” metaphor.