6 ms·

Some communities have also been disproportionately persecuted by the police for, a very long time. Maybe it's a legacy of slavery and later segregation. Maybe

Some communities have also been disproportionately persecuted by the police for, a very long time. Maybe it's a legacy of slavery and later segregation. Maybe it's a lack of unifying national spirit (the melting pot of cultural assimilation and a desire to be a small spice in a greater whole) which might have just been wishful thinking on the part of history book authors. I suspect most of the non-anarchist who feel that way would agree with my take that "defund" might be better expressed as RE-form. Re-form the Police in a de-militarized way. Structure community interaction so they are helpful, rather than penalizing. (E.G. more like Japanese neighborhood branches.) Split out social and mental health crisis, maybe with domestic violence response teams that include a mix of branches. Also, for mental health, make it easier to get interventions earlier, before assault with a deadly weapon leads to regrettable and unavoidably bad sets of outcomes.

horrified 5y ago
"Some communities have also been disproportionately persecuted by the police for, a very long time." Are you friggin' serious? It's OK if a police officer commits suicide, because some other people harassed some other people before?
- mjevans 5y ago
  Not what I said. Please do not put words like that in anyone's mouth.
  - horrified 5y ago
    I don't see how it is not what you said. What point were you trying to make?
    - yetihehe 5y ago
      He says where violence comes from. It's not justifying violence, it's saying why it exists and what area should be looked in for solution.
      - Leparamour 5y ago
        >He says where violence comes from. They do not in fact. They insinuate that police is arresting blacks as a modern sequel to slavery. That's a complete reversal of cause and effect. Blacks are disproportionally targeted because they're committing criminal acts at disproportionally higher levels compared to every other "marginalized" minority. There's a reason the 13/50 trope exists for blacks and not for Asians.
        cycomanic 5y ago
        Things are not so clear cut. There is significant research that blacks will face much higher likelyhood of being charged with a crime for the same behaviour for example, similarly if you specifically target a certain ethnic group with random stop and frisk you're obviously also catch more crime, let's not even talk about the large economic disparities.
        yetihehe 5y ago
        > Blacks are disproportionally targeted because they're committing criminal acts at disproportionally higher levels compared to every other "marginalized" minority. I agree, but just because blacks commit more crimes, it is NOT valid to harass innocent blacks. When you harass innocent blacks, you have more resentment from general populace. It is easy to see all blacks as criminals when all you see every day are black criminals, because you are a cop in black criminal neighbourhood, but such stances will make all black people hate police. It's not "EITHER blacks are disproportionally targetted OR blacks commit more crimes". It's both and it makes for vicious cycle of violence. Someone has to stop it. Because police doesn't or can't stop it, blacks are trying to do what they can, which is to protest. Then when people protest and no one listens, they are too angry (too many various reasons to specify), they resort to violence and you have riots.
        leereeves 5y ago
        But when policing is reduced in these communities, the crime rate skyrockets. There's a much deeper problem that isn't being addressed by "defund the police". Indeed, that's why disproportionate targeting still exists. We've forgotten that the police policy that BLM objects to now was supported not long ago by Democrats and black community leaders, because crime was a major problem, but now we're starting to remember.
qwerty456127 5y ago
I agree yet am not really confident in that the police can be de-militarized in a country where every minor criminal has a gun and living is segregated in a way so some neighborhoods actually are much more dangerous than others.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  The police haven't always been as militarized as they are now. We could easily go back. I think ending the drug war with legalization and decriminalization and ending no-knock warrants without extreme circumstances would go a long way.
  - qwerty456127 5y ago
    As for this - yes, I'm rather sure. The drug war is evil. I'm glad some states are legalizing psychedelics already. I would add that zero-tolerance policies by which people loose jobs and schools for trace amounts of light drugs found in their urine samples after a weekend should be banned too.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      Drug tests should be banned for most folks. Additionally: What is a trace amount after a weekend? Can you tell if someone smoked pot on Sunday rather than Monday on a Wednesday drug test? Does it matter if it is a "heavy" drug (say, mushrooms?)? Does it matter that someone did a couple of lines of coke saturday rather than be drunk and high from Friday to Sunday?
      - qwerty456127 5y ago
        > Can you tell if someone smoked pot on Sunday rather than Monday on a Wednesday drug test? I don't really know. I thought there would be difference in concentration. > Does it matter if it is a "heavy" drug (say, mushrooms?)? Mushrooms are not a hard drug. Fentanyl/heroine and crack are. > Does it matter that someone did a couple of lines of coke saturday rather than be drunk and high from Friday to Sunday? IMHO the second is worse.
Leparamour 5y ago
>Some communities have also been disproportionately persecuted by the police for, a very long time. The criminal community?
- myWindoonn 5y ago
  It's your lucky day for learning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol
  - myWindoonn 5y ago
    Downvoters can't handle the truth: modern police evolved from slave patrols. Modern abuses towards African-Americans evolved from traditional abuses towards slaves. Modern police techniques which attack the protesting public evolved from lynch mobs which attacked individual protestors.
    - horrified 5y ago
      From Wikipedia: "The slave patrols' function was to police enslaved persons" How can their function have been to "police" slaves, when policing hat not yet been invented and only evolved from those slave patrols? And how did governments keep order before slavery made the invention of "police" possible? In any case, what does it matter what it evolved from?
fn1 5y ago
> Re-form the Police Triple their pay, but also enforce strict no-tolerance rules on misbehaviour and select candidates more carefully.
- SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
  This is what I would do, if I were in charge: 1) Lawsuit payouts come from police pensions, not the taxpayer. Watch them keep each other in line when it's their money on the line. 2) Body cam not running? No qualified immunity, police then become liable for murder/assault/theft/kidnapping charges like any civilian would be if they committed the same acts. That would give police sufficient incentive to ensure their cams are not "malfunctioning". 3) Police that are fired for misconduct are no longer eligible for hire at any precinct. 4) Falsifying reports and planting evidence are prosecutable offenses. 5) Training becomes far more rigorous, and takes a civic-mindedness approach, not a warrior-wolf approach. 6) Military equipment is largely decommed, with only specialist anti-terror squads getting the heavy weaponry. 7) Civil forfeiture is abolished. 8) Hiring standards are raised.
  - automatic6131 5y ago
    8 good suggestions that ought to be able to find bipartisan support
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Throw in mandatory minimum training standards, preferably longer then a hand full of weeks and including de-escalation. Good points so.
user-the-name 5y ago
"Reform" has been the policy for decades now, and meanwhile the situation has been steadily and rapidly getting worse. The whole point of "defund" is that "reform" has failed. Something more drastic is needed.
yy776yyhhh 5y ago
It's really weird to automatically assume the community's feelings are justified when most violence faced by black people is from other black people. It seems a lot more likely that standing by idiots from bad neighborhoods is simply politically convenient right now and so they're making noise because that's what idiots do when you give them a microphone.

horrified 5y ago

"Some communities have also been disproportionately persecuted by the police for, a very long time." Are you friggin' serious? It's OK if a police officer commits suicide, because some other people harassed some other people before?

mjevans 5y ago
Not what I said. Please do not put words like that in anyone's mouth.
- horrified 5y ago
  I don't see how it is not what you said. What point were you trying to make?
  - yetihehe 5y ago
    He says where violence comes from. It's not justifying violence, it's saying why it exists and what area should be looked in for solution.
    - Leparamour 5y ago
      >He says where violence comes from. They do not in fact. They insinuate that police is arresting blacks as a modern sequel to slavery. That's a complete reversal of cause and effect. Blacks are disproportionally targeted because they're committing criminal acts at disproportionally higher levels compared to every other "marginalized" minority. There's a reason the 13/50 trope exists for blacks and not for Asians.
      - cycomanic 5y ago
        Things are not so clear cut. There is significant research that blacks will face much higher likelyhood of being charged with a crime for the same behaviour for example, similarly if you specifically target a certain ethnic group with random stop and frisk you're obviously also catch more crime, let's not even talk about the large economic disparities.
      - yetihehe 5y ago
        > Blacks are disproportionally targeted because they're committing criminal acts at disproportionally higher levels compared to every other "marginalized" minority. I agree, but just because blacks commit more crimes, it is NOT valid to harass innocent blacks. When you harass innocent blacks, you have more resentment from general populace. It is easy to see all blacks as criminals when all you see every day are black criminals, because you are a cop in black criminal neighbourhood, but such stances will make all black people hate police. It's not "EITHER blacks are disproportionally targetted OR blacks commit more crimes". It's both and it makes for vicious cycle of violence. Someone has to stop it. Because police doesn't or can't stop it, blacks are trying to do what they can, which is to protest. Then when people protest and no one listens, they are too angry (too many various reasons to specify), they resort to violence and you have riots.
        leereeves 5y ago
        But when policing is reduced in these communities, the crime rate skyrockets. There's a much deeper problem that isn't being addressed by "defund the police". Indeed, that's why disproportionate targeting still exists. We've forgotten that the police policy that BLM objects to now was supported not long ago by Democrats and black community leaders, because crime was a major problem, but now we're starting to remember.

qwerty456127 5y ago

I agree yet am not really confident in that the police can be de-militarized in a country where every minor criminal has a gun and living is segregated in a way so some neighborhoods actually are much more dangerous than others.

ALittleLight 5y ago
The police haven't always been as militarized as they are now. We could easily go back. I think ending the drug war with legalization and decriminalization and ending no-knock warrants without extreme circumstances would go a long way.
- qwerty456127 5y ago
  As for this - yes, I'm rather sure. The drug war is evil. I'm glad some states are legalizing psychedelics already. I would add that zero-tolerance policies by which people loose jobs and schools for trace amounts of light drugs found in their urine samples after a weekend should be banned too.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    Drug tests should be banned for most folks. Additionally: What is a trace amount after a weekend? Can you tell if someone smoked pot on Sunday rather than Monday on a Wednesday drug test? Does it matter if it is a "heavy" drug (say, mushrooms?)? Does it matter that someone did a couple of lines of coke saturday rather than be drunk and high from Friday to Sunday?
    - qwerty456127 5y ago
      > Can you tell if someone smoked pot on Sunday rather than Monday on a Wednesday drug test? I don't really know. I thought there would be difference in concentration. > Does it matter if it is a "heavy" drug (say, mushrooms?)? Mushrooms are not a hard drug. Fentanyl/heroine and crack are. > Does it matter that someone did a couple of lines of coke saturday rather than be drunk and high from Friday to Sunday? IMHO the second is worse.

Leparamour 5y ago

>Some communities have also been disproportionately persecuted by the police for, a very long time. The criminal community?

myWindoonn 5y ago
It's your lucky day for learning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol
- myWindoonn 5y ago
  Downvoters can't handle the truth: modern police evolved from slave patrols. Modern abuses towards African-Americans evolved from traditional abuses towards slaves. Modern police techniques which attack the protesting public evolved from lynch mobs which attacked individual protestors.
  - horrified 5y ago
    From Wikipedia: "The slave patrols' function was to police enslaved persons" How can their function have been to "police" slaves, when policing hat not yet been invented and only evolved from those slave patrols? And how did governments keep order before slavery made the invention of "police" possible? In any case, what does it matter what it evolved from?

fn1 5y ago

> Re-form the Police Triple their pay, but also enforce strict no-tolerance rules on misbehaviour and select candidates more carefully.

SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
This is what I would do, if I were in charge: 1) Lawsuit payouts come from police pensions, not the taxpayer. Watch them keep each other in line when it's their money on the line. 2) Body cam not running? No qualified immunity, police then become liable for murder/assault/theft/kidnapping charges like any civilian would be if they committed the same acts. That would give police sufficient incentive to ensure their cams are not "malfunctioning". 3) Police that are fired for misconduct are no longer eligible for hire at any precinct. 4) Falsifying reports and planting evidence are prosecutable offenses. 5) Training becomes far more rigorous, and takes a civic-mindedness approach, not a warrior-wolf approach. 6) Military equipment is largely decommed, with only specialist anti-terror squads getting the heavy weaponry. 7) Civil forfeiture is abolished. 8) Hiring standards are raised.
- automatic6131 5y ago
  8 good suggestions that ought to be able to find bipartisan support
- hef19898 5y ago
  Throw in mandatory minimum training standards, preferably longer then a hand full of weeks and including de-escalation. Good points so.

user-the-name 5y ago

"Reform" has been the policy for decades now, and meanwhile the situation has been steadily and rapidly getting worse. The whole point of "defund" is that "reform" has failed. Something more drastic is needed.

yy776yyhhh 5y ago

It's really weird to automatically assume the community's feelings are justified when most violence faced by black people is from other black people. It seems a lot more likely that standing by idiots from bad neighborhoods is simply politically convenient right now and so they're making noise because that's what idiots do when you give them a microphone.