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I pay for a cold calling service that lets me look up emails and phone numbers for many professionals of import. These days customer service gets two shots to g

I pay for a cold calling service that lets me look up emails and phone numbers for many professionals of import. These days customer service gets two shots to get it right before I start calling the personal cell phone numbers of the C-suite, board of directors and everyone with the word director in their title. I'm absolutely over shitty customer service and it's not fair to subject customer service representatives to well deserved vitriol. Well paid execs getting the big bucks and making the decisions to under-invest in customer service and driving down defects? Fair game. With the last company whose customer service messed up badly, I reached out to the head of e-commerce for the company. I was nice and pleasant and explained the dilemma, but then he tried to pass the buck back to support which did not have the resources to solve the problem to which I replied "You're the head of e-commerce for company X, the buck stops with you. This is your problem to resolve. If you don't take ownership, I'm perfectly capable of escalating this issue myself, first to A, your CEO (personal cell number (xxx) xxx-xxxx and personal email foo@bar.com), then to B (...), C (...), or D (...) on the board of directors, then E, the CEO of the company that owns your company (...), and then F, who is on his board of directors (...) and happens to live 2 miles from me.". ...boom, problem resolved immediately. Not just for me but for other customers. Changes were made to their website within days. When warranted, you just have to go absolutely nuclear and make it clear as day that solving your problem personally is far cheaper than you escalating the the issue to anyone and everyone with power at the company whose customer service is jerking you around. You have to make the cost of not providing customer service well the first time around so expensive that they don't see any other option than to invest in doing things right the first time.

ChrisKnott 5y ago
Is there a techbro version of "Karen" because this is that. I mean, seriously... buying people's personal contact details??
- malandrew 5y ago
  I mean, seriously... wasting the time, patience and goodwill of your paying customers by under-investing in quality customer support and driving down defects?? I know it's popular to diss the "karens" of the world, but a lot of them keep in check businesses that will abuse their customers if they can get away with it. They can be a useful corrective force just like class action lawsuits can be.
  - switch007 5y ago
    A little tin foil hat but I can imagine shitty company engaging marketing companies to spread the Karen meme. It seems like anyone who tries to get proper customer service these days is cancelled with “don’t be a karen” and “#BeKind” (Nb neither of these apply to the companies of course, just customers :-))
    - BoxOfRain 5y ago
      I think the difference between a Karen and someone who simply wants adequate customer service is that the Karen will tend to abuse people who a) lack the power to help as they're too far down the corporate ladder and b) will lose their livelihoods if they shout back, making it an unsporting thing to do. You're a Karen if you shriek and stamp your feet at a teenage fast food employee over chips that are too salty, you're not a Karen if you calmly but firmly escalate things to people who do have the power to solve your problem. It's the power dynamic that makes one a Karen, "punching down" is a Karenish move while "punching up" is often fair enough in my opinion.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  Seriously. My whole thought reading GP's post was "This person is coming across as a complete asshole by their own words, but in their mind they are thinking they are coming across as some kind of hero."
  - malandrew 5y ago
    I see no issues with anyone being an asshole once others have driven them to that point. Should people continue to accept abuse and suffering from those who indifferently inflict it?
    - loa_in_ 5y ago
      I agree with this as far as dealing with corporations goes. Somehow society internalized that whatever corporations do wrong is a "corporation's fault", but whatever bad happens to a corporation is a wrongdoing towards the employees. Corporations are conscience-lacking psychopaths, faceless cowards and abusers, and should be treated as such. They are cowards because they hide behind false appearances - the go-to method of dealing with their own shortcomings. And they are smart about it. This point is beatifully driven home in a futuristic science-fiction novel "Accelerando" (which is free btw) where corporations based on smart contracts and AI threaten sentient beings uploaded into the net by publishing altered derivatives of public works to reposess unsuspecting readers's minds using copyright law.
  - mcv 5y ago
    I don't know. He's taking it to the actual people responsible, rather than taking it out on call center employees who are understaffed, overworked and powerless to change anything. It's a brutal power move, but it targets the people actually responsible and it clearly gets results. I think this is way better for everybody involved. Of course it does depend on the person escalating being correct about the issue, and good and reasonable about explaining it to the person in charge. And we all know that's not going to be true for your average customer. So use this power with discretion.
  - esyir 5y ago
    Seems fair to me. Don't let them hide from the consequences of their shitty decisions by firewalling themselves behind underpaid tech support.
- fauigerzigerk 5y ago
  Please stop using a very common name as a derogative! It's insulting to the women who have that name. Also, as you noticed, there is no male version of it. It's a decidedly sexist meme that shouldn't be promoted.
  - rnjesus 5y ago
    what a chad thing to say
    - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
      Yes there are other memes using common first names and I don't like any of them. Not one bit. Not all of them are equally insulting though.
      - gspr 5y ago
        Chill.
  - theelous3 5y ago
    Kevin over here giving sass.
    - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
      Good for you. Someone dear to me finds it extremely hurtful, which is why I commented. Also, I think the Kevin meme originally came from a comedy. The connotations aren't quite as nasty and serious as the Karen ones. But there are definitely other very negative name memes. I don't like any of it, but I fully accept that people can feel differently about it.
      - ChrisKnott 5y ago
        I actually agree, I wouldn't use it to describe someone, I thought it was OK to reference the meme in the abstract.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  What's good for the goose...
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Yeah, that's excessive. It is just as effective to craft a polite but firm snail-mail letter instead and it's a lot less Karen.
codezero 5y ago
I’ve run support teams, even ones that are well taken care of, and there is no situation where your approach doesn’t hurt the support team and teach the executive nothing. I’m happy to go into more detail, and/or offer advice on better approaches if you sincerely want it.
- malandrew 5y ago
  I'm all ears (sincerely), but any solution you offer needs to be effective at resolving the problems a company has created for me. I'm also happy to try other less-nuclear options first before I bust out the big guns. As I said, I don't start with this approach. In fact, I resorted to it out of necessity as the clerical mistake of one fortune 500 company was going to personally cost me more than $275k over 30 years. I spent several months and dozens of hours trying to resolve the issue. That one company burnt out all the patience I had for a lifetime. Necessity was the mother of this invention. I give companies a fair chance to do things right. I said two shots, but my actual heuristic is when a problem starts costing me 4 figures if I were billing for my time instead. Usually that's about two significantly frustrating customer service interactions with long wait times. Just today I had to call customer service for an airline and the wait times were over 4 hours! I ended up getting around the wait time by calling their customer support number in another language I speak and being able to resolve the problem without hassle. But there is no planet where 4 hours wait times are acceptable and I feel bad for those whose only option was to call their English-only customer support number.
  - codezero 5y ago
    Ultimately what I'm going to suggest comes down to philosophy, so if it doesn't align w/ your approach/needs I get it. A theme of how you describe your interactions was to throw the support team under the bus, and/or highlight their failures to help you when interacting with an executive. It's my experience that the executive has made intentional choices to deflect customer issues and that support team is their doing one way or another. Complaining about the support team to an executive will just put more pressure on the support team without granting them further support. I'll get to a point in a minute :) Another theme I see is one of using the system to your advantage. I have a fun similar airport story. I knew my flight would get cancelled (weather) and I was about six hours early to the airport. I knew United had a partnership w/ Air Canada and the United staff wouldn't help me / the line was way too long because other flights already got cancelled. I went to the Air Canada desk and asked them to help since they had access to the same booking system. They told me to talk w/ United. While waiting in line again at United I called United on the phone and explained the situation and they immediately booked me an alternate flight on Air Canada that was direct to my destination, instead of through the one with bad weather. They also let me know that the Toronto airport I was in had a notorious rivalry between the staff of United and Air Canada where they constantly defer to the other team, supposedly because of spite. So, my system. Always take advantage of the system (non-human parts) - hit zero on the phone, try extensions if you dare. My main approach when dealing with entry-level support people is to understand they have limited tools and their job is often to read a script that tries to get you to agree they helped. It's OK to deviate from that script, and if they can't help to ask to speak with a supervisor who can potentially offer a better option. When you move up the chain, it's important not to step on people on the way up. If they can't help you and you need to go around them by digging up the CEO via a cold call - I also think that's OK, but at that point you should be able to get what you want without throwing the failed support agent under the bus. If you want to give the executive advice, let them know that the support team seemed about as helpful as they could, but they didn't seem to have the training or support to offer you a fast resolution. Directly ask the executive to spend more time and effort investing in their support team and thinking of ways to offer improved support to avoid folks having to try to work around them. This frames it as a problem for the CEO to address with investment specifically, not one where they can just assume the support team did poorly and then go yell at a manager to improve morale with more beatings. Anyways, always punch up is my rule. A second rule is to be deferential and try to take the blame for why you aren't getting what you want. This works exceptionally well at building empathy with support folks. At one point in my life I missed about 50% of my flights, every time I'd be in line behind someone who complained about how slow security was, or the bag check, and they'd just get shut down. Every time I just asked if there was anything they could do to help me out given how absent minded I was for arriving late and not being prepared and I usually got the next flight out for free. Anyways, punch up, use the system to your advantage, but don't direct your ire towards support teams when they fail. Also, if they've done a bad job it sends a better signal to fill out those NPS/CSAT surveys you get after the support interaction with a low score. This stuff will make it to execs, and comments that are left are often read thoroughly.
sadok 5y ago
What is the name of the cold calling service, for research purposes.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  This Lifehacker article mentions several: https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-service-and-get-your-1563732113 https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-ser...
lenkite 5y ago
You are getting downvoted, but realistically your approach works. Had to do this myself a couple of times when desperate.
dredmorbius 5y ago
This is a recognised and effective method after standard approaches have been exausted. It goes by selveral names, though "email executive carpet bomb" is one colourful and memorable term associated with it. http://consumerist.com/2007/05/11/how-to-launch-an-executive-email-carpet-bomb/ http://consumerist.com/2007/05/11/how-to-launch-an-executive... I've used this a few times myself. Again, after going through normal channels. The mode where multiple executives are contacted (and perhaps a member or two of the press CC'd) is particularly effective as it plays off both internal office politics and the bad public relations spillover dynamic. Remember too that such approaches aren't entirely self-serving. If you are having a specific issue, it's quite likely that many others are as well. https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-service-and-get-your-1563732113 https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-ser...
geofft 5y ago
Genuine question - why wasn't it cheaper for that company to drop you as a customer?
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  Most certainly it was. Not all organisations realise that dropping some customers is a good move

ChrisKnott 5y ago

Is there a techbro version of "Karen" because this is that. I mean, seriously... buying people's personal contact details??

malandrew 5y ago
I mean, seriously... wasting the time, patience and goodwill of your paying customers by under-investing in quality customer support and driving down defects?? I know it's popular to diss the "karens" of the world, but a lot of them keep in check businesses that will abuse their customers if they can get away with it. They can be a useful corrective force just like class action lawsuits can be.
- switch007 5y ago
  A little tin foil hat but I can imagine shitty company engaging marketing companies to spread the Karen meme. It seems like anyone who tries to get proper customer service these days is cancelled with “don’t be a karen” and “#BeKind” (Nb neither of these apply to the companies of course, just customers :-))
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    I think the difference between a Karen and someone who simply wants adequate customer service is that the Karen will tend to abuse people who a) lack the power to help as they're too far down the corporate ladder and b) will lose their livelihoods if they shout back, making it an unsporting thing to do. You're a Karen if you shriek and stamp your feet at a teenage fast food employee over chips that are too salty, you're not a Karen if you calmly but firmly escalate things to people who do have the power to solve your problem. It's the power dynamic that makes one a Karen, "punching down" is a Karenish move while "punching up" is often fair enough in my opinion.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Seriously. My whole thought reading GP's post was "This person is coming across as a complete asshole by their own words, but in their mind they are thinking they are coming across as some kind of hero."
- malandrew 5y ago
  I see no issues with anyone being an asshole once others have driven them to that point. Should people continue to accept abuse and suffering from those who indifferently inflict it?
  - loa_in_ 5y ago
    I agree with this as far as dealing with corporations goes. Somehow society internalized that whatever corporations do wrong is a "corporation's fault", but whatever bad happens to a corporation is a wrongdoing towards the employees. Corporations are conscience-lacking psychopaths, faceless cowards and abusers, and should be treated as such. They are cowards because they hide behind false appearances - the go-to method of dealing with their own shortcomings. And they are smart about it. This point is beatifully driven home in a futuristic science-fiction novel "Accelerando" (which is free btw) where corporations based on smart contracts and AI threaten sentient beings uploaded into the net by publishing altered derivatives of public works to reposess unsuspecting readers's minds using copyright law.
- mcv 5y ago
  I don't know. He's taking it to the actual people responsible, rather than taking it out on call center employees who are understaffed, overworked and powerless to change anything. It's a brutal power move, but it targets the people actually responsible and it clearly gets results. I think this is way better for everybody involved. Of course it does depend on the person escalating being correct about the issue, and good and reasonable about explaining it to the person in charge. And we all know that's not going to be true for your average customer. So use this power with discretion.
- esyir 5y ago
  Seems fair to me. Don't let them hide from the consequences of their shitty decisions by firewalling themselves behind underpaid tech support.
fauigerzigerk 5y ago
Please stop using a very common name as a derogative! It's insulting to the women who have that name. Also, as you noticed, there is no male version of it. It's a decidedly sexist meme that shouldn't be promoted.
- rnjesus 5y ago
  what a chad thing to say
  - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
    Yes there are other memes using common first names and I don't like any of them. Not one bit. Not all of them are equally insulting though.
    - gspr 5y ago
      Chill.
- theelous3 5y ago
  Kevin over here giving sass.
  - fauigerzigerk 5y ago
    Good for you. Someone dear to me finds it extremely hurtful, which is why I commented. Also, I think the Kevin meme originally came from a comedy. The connotations aren't quite as nasty and serious as the Karen ones. But there are definitely other very negative name memes. I don't like any of it, but I fully accept that people can feel differently about it.
    - ChrisKnott 5y ago
      I actually agree, I wouldn't use it to describe someone, I thought it was OK to reference the meme in the abstract.
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
What's good for the goose...
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Yeah, that's excessive. It is just as effective to craft a polite but firm snail-mail letter instead and it's a lot less Karen.

codezero 5y ago

I’ve run support teams, even ones that are well taken care of, and there is no situation where your approach doesn’t hurt the support team and teach the executive nothing. I’m happy to go into more detail, and/or offer advice on better approaches if you sincerely want it.

malandrew 5y ago
I'm all ears (sincerely), but any solution you offer needs to be effective at resolving the problems a company has created for me. I'm also happy to try other less-nuclear options first before I bust out the big guns. As I said, I don't start with this approach. In fact, I resorted to it out of necessity as the clerical mistake of one fortune 500 company was going to personally cost me more than $275k over 30 years. I spent several months and dozens of hours trying to resolve the issue. That one company burnt out all the patience I had for a lifetime. Necessity was the mother of this invention. I give companies a fair chance to do things right. I said two shots, but my actual heuristic is when a problem starts costing me 4 figures if I were billing for my time instead. Usually that's about two significantly frustrating customer service interactions with long wait times. Just today I had to call customer service for an airline and the wait times were over 4 hours! I ended up getting around the wait time by calling their customer support number in another language I speak and being able to resolve the problem without hassle. But there is no planet where 4 hours wait times are acceptable and I feel bad for those whose only option was to call their English-only customer support number.
- codezero 5y ago
  Ultimately what I'm going to suggest comes down to philosophy, so if it doesn't align w/ your approach/needs I get it. A theme of how you describe your interactions was to throw the support team under the bus, and/or highlight their failures to help you when interacting with an executive. It's my experience that the executive has made intentional choices to deflect customer issues and that support team is their doing one way or another. Complaining about the support team to an executive will just put more pressure on the support team without granting them further support. I'll get to a point in a minute :) Another theme I see is one of using the system to your advantage. I have a fun similar airport story. I knew my flight would get cancelled (weather) and I was about six hours early to the airport. I knew United had a partnership w/ Air Canada and the United staff wouldn't help me / the line was way too long because other flights already got cancelled. I went to the Air Canada desk and asked them to help since they had access to the same booking system. They told me to talk w/ United. While waiting in line again at United I called United on the phone and explained the situation and they immediately booked me an alternate flight on Air Canada that was direct to my destination, instead of through the one with bad weather. They also let me know that the Toronto airport I was in had a notorious rivalry between the staff of United and Air Canada where they constantly defer to the other team, supposedly because of spite. So, my system. Always take advantage of the system (non-human parts) - hit zero on the phone, try extensions if you dare. My main approach when dealing with entry-level support people is to understand they have limited tools and their job is often to read a script that tries to get you to agree they helped. It's OK to deviate from that script, and if they can't help to ask to speak with a supervisor who can potentially offer a better option. When you move up the chain, it's important not to step on people on the way up. If they can't help you and you need to go around them by digging up the CEO via a cold call - I also think that's OK, but at that point you should be able to get what you want without throwing the failed support agent under the bus. If you want to give the executive advice, let them know that the support team seemed about as helpful as they could, but they didn't seem to have the training or support to offer you a fast resolution. Directly ask the executive to spend more time and effort investing in their support team and thinking of ways to offer improved support to avoid folks having to try to work around them. This frames it as a problem for the CEO to address with investment specifically, not one where they can just assume the support team did poorly and then go yell at a manager to improve morale with more beatings. Anyways, always punch up is my rule. A second rule is to be deferential and try to take the blame for why you aren't getting what you want. This works exceptionally well at building empathy with support folks. At one point in my life I missed about 50% of my flights, every time I'd be in line behind someone who complained about how slow security was, or the bag check, and they'd just get shut down. Every time I just asked if there was anything they could do to help me out given how absent minded I was for arriving late and not being prepared and I usually got the next flight out for free. Anyways, punch up, use the system to your advantage, but don't direct your ire towards support teams when they fail. Also, if they've done a bad job it sends a better signal to fill out those NPS/CSAT surveys you get after the support interaction with a low score. This stuff will make it to execs, and comments that are left are often read thoroughly.

sadok 5y ago

What is the name of the cold calling service, for research purposes.

dredmorbius 5y ago
This Lifehacker article mentions several: https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-service-and-get-your-1563732113 https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-ser...

lenkite 5y ago

You are getting downvoted, but realistically your approach works. Had to do this myself a couple of times when desperate.

dredmorbius 5y ago

This is a recognised and effective method after standard approaches have been exausted. It goes by selveral names, though "email executive carpet bomb" is one colourful and memorable term associated with it. http://consumerist.com/2007/05/11/how-to-launch-an-executive-email-carpet-bomb/ http://consumerist.com/2007/05/11/how-to-launch-an-executive... I've used this a few times myself. Again, after going through normal channels. The mode where multiple executives are contacted (and perhaps a member or two of the press CC'd) is particularly effective as it plays off both internal office politics and the bad public relations spillover dynamic. Remember too that such approaches aren't entirely self-serving. If you are having a specific issue, it's quite likely that many others are as well. https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-service-and-get-your-1563732113 https://lifehacker.com/how-to-contact-executive-customer-ser...

geofft 5y ago

Genuine question - why wasn't it cheaper for that company to drop you as a customer?

quickthrower2 5y ago
Most certainly it was. Not all organisations realise that dropping some customers is a good move