4 ms·

I'm not sure how he came to the conclusion that Lion isn't beginner-friendly anymore. The only reason it took him 20 minutes to get acclimated is because he's m

by cmelbye 15y ago

I'm not sure how he came to the conclusion that Lion isn't beginner-friendly anymore. The only reason it took him 20 minutes to get acclimated is because he's most likely been using advanced features of OS X (that were slightly changed in Lion) for years and it took him a little while to rewrite his muscle memory. I installed Lion on both of my parent's computers a few weeks ago. The only things they noticed that was changed was the vastly improved Mail UI, which they both picked up almost instantly, and the scrolling. I simply warned them that scrolling had been reversed, they noted that "it finally makes sense because the stuff that's moving goes in the right direction now," and they continued using the computer normally.

kenjackson 15y ago
First, I haven't used Lion yet. But from listening to Engadget it sounds as if they have made some rather confusing changes. For example, they point out that application-wide gestures are two finger and system-wide gestures are three finger. This strongly assumes that people know the difference. Based on convos I've had people don't. "Which version of Office are you using?" "XP". "Office XP?" "Umm, Windows XP?". "OK, that's the version of Windows. What is the version of Office?" "The whole computer is XP". They were using Office 2003.
- astral303 15y ago
  However, that's a difference that can be picked up experimentally and can start making sense: "two fingers keep me in the browser, three fingers throw me out of the browser and go somewhere else." You don't get punished by using the wrong gesture (unless it's a web page in Safari that doesn't support back and forward movement): if you use three fingers in one direction, three fingers in the other direction will get you back. Your contrast of versions of Windows and Office is an apples and oranges comparison. People don't know that difference because it doesn't matter and there is no reason to even discover that difference.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    How can you say there's no reason to discover to discover the difference between apps/system yet argue that they'll notice they jumped from one app to another? And as web apps approach the look and feel of native apps this will become harder to understand. As you point out, the distinction isn't necessary for many novices. Yet Apple is making the distinction a fundamental aspect of their gesture model.
    - astral303 15y ago
      I don't think that you can equate knowing that you have 'Office XP' vs 'Office 2003' (which is a difference that I maintain is inconsequential in daily use) to the difference of seeing your screen move off sideways onto another kind of application. Even if there is no application in another screen, that's still a difference that you at least will experience and wonder about. Sure, web apps are getting closer to native apps and that's a great point (why is switching between web apps that much different than switching between spaces). However, most web pages still tend to look much like a web page and I maintain that people will discover the concept of different applications by associating them with what comes up once they click the dock icons (iCal, Mail, Settings). Another point is that if this distinction is useless to novices (e.g. they don't use the gestures or they don't "get it"), then the more experienced users can pick up on this, and take advantage of this knowledge. Just because it's a fundamental aspect of the gestures does not hurt the novice aspect.
- orofino 15y ago
  This assumes the users have somehow discovered the gestures. Based on you're own example, I'd say that they won't. You can use the OS just fine without ever bumping into a gesture.
- cmelbye 15y ago
  Luckily Apple has included a nicely organized touchpad settings page with videos of all of the gestures (just like Snow Leopard had). If someone wants to learn the gestures and finds that they aren't simply intuitive (which I personally believe they are), they can simply watch the videos and see how to do them.

by cmelbye 15y ago

kenjackson 15y ago

First, I haven't used Lion yet. But from listening to Engadget it sounds as if they have made some rather confusing changes. For example, they point out that application-wide gestures are two finger and system-wide gestures are three finger. This strongly assumes that people know the difference. Based on convos I've had people don't. "Which version of Office are you using?" "XP". "Office XP?" "Umm, Windows XP?". "OK, that's the version of Windows. What is the version of Office?" "The whole computer is XP". They were using Office 2003.

astral303 15y ago
However, that's a difference that can be picked up experimentally and can start making sense: "two fingers keep me in the browser, three fingers throw me out of the browser and go somewhere else." You don't get punished by using the wrong gesture (unless it's a web page in Safari that doesn't support back and forward movement): if you use three fingers in one direction, three fingers in the other direction will get you back. Your contrast of versions of Windows and Office is an apples and oranges comparison. People don't know that difference because it doesn't matter and there is no reason to even discover that difference.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  How can you say there's no reason to discover to discover the difference between apps/system yet argue that they'll notice they jumped from one app to another? And as web apps approach the look and feel of native apps this will become harder to understand. As you point out, the distinction isn't necessary for many novices. Yet Apple is making the distinction a fundamental aspect of their gesture model.
  - astral303 15y ago
    I don't think that you can equate knowing that you have 'Office XP' vs 'Office 2003' (which is a difference that I maintain is inconsequential in daily use) to the difference of seeing your screen move off sideways onto another kind of application. Even if there is no application in another screen, that's still a difference that you at least will experience and wonder about. Sure, web apps are getting closer to native apps and that's a great point (why is switching between web apps that much different than switching between spaces). However, most web pages still tend to look much like a web page and I maintain that people will discover the concept of different applications by associating them with what comes up once they click the dock icons (iCal, Mail, Settings). Another point is that if this distinction is useless to novices (e.g. they don't use the gestures or they don't "get it"), then the more experienced users can pick up on this, and take advantage of this knowledge. Just because it's a fundamental aspect of the gestures does not hurt the novice aspect.
orofino 15y ago
This assumes the users have somehow discovered the gestures. Based on you're own example, I'd say that they won't. You can use the OS just fine without ever bumping into a gesture.
cmelbye 15y ago
Luckily Apple has included a nicely organized touchpad settings page with videos of all of the gestures (just like Snow Leopard had). If someone wants to learn the gestures and finds that they aren't simply intuitive (which I personally believe they are), they can simply watch the videos and see how to do them.