5 ms·

From what I learned, it’s not specialty. Congress has a law that certain percentage of military provisioning must be domestic. The military had to meet the quot

From what I learned, it’s not specialty. Congress has a law that certain percentage of military provisioning must be domestic. The military had to meet the quota by buying toilets, and someone set up a factory in the US just to supply the military, so the unit price was through the roof. This became an example of how the US manufacturing has weakened so much.

HWR_14 5y ago
The example I'm aware of is that the toilet seats needed to be a specific shape to fit in a specific aircraft, and that they only needed 1XX of them. The $20,000 price tag is because they had to pay for molds, testing, various other fixed costs required to operate, etc.
- aaron695 5y ago
  This article talking about this sells it as they managed to get the cost down through 3D printing, I'm absolutely willing to bet it cost the Airforce way more than contracting it out. The cost of a commercial 3d printer with security, to autocad it up, training staff, sending people into the field to measure it. To have a trained air force employee designing toilet seats is questionable, is that what the military should do? Maybe and the air force should explore 3D printers, so it's a waste that might be worth it. But lets not pretend $10,000 went to $300. The Air Force’s $10,000 toilet cover - https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-air-forces-10000-toilet-cover/2018/07/14/c33d325a-85df-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-... I wonder if there are any follow ups on what else they 3D printed?
  - foerbert 5y ago
    After reading this, I think I've actually changed my mind a bit - not that I ever had a super strong opinion. But now I'm thinking that yes - we absolutely want the military occasionally doing things like going out and designing their own toilet seat. The military is kind of an odd organization. As the world in general increasingly specializes, the military doesn't. Not really. At the end of the day the military is there to "interface" with the rest of the world - and that's basically been how it was and how it's going to continue to be. Them having knowledge of how things - even toilet seats - are manufactured could be legitimately useful in their military function. It's essentially letting them get a first-hand view on how the world - particularly in terms of manufacturing - works. What steps, technology, infrastructure, etc etc are required to build things? Ideally of course they would, and still should, get subject matter experts in to advise them for strategy and planning and all that. But it's somewhat naive to suggest this is likely to work perfectly all the time. It rarely does, because humans are going to human. If they can get some hands on experience it gives them some trusted internal people who can better communicate with the subject matter experts and ultimately reach better conclusions.
    - aaron695 5y ago
      DARPA did kinda try and automate sewing - https://www.wired.com/2012/06/darpa-sweatshop/ https://www.wired.com/2012/06/darpa-sweatshop/ Uniforms are billions of dollars. I think what's important is not they bought 3 toilet seats for $10,000 on planes that costs $100,000 a hour to fly. Universal Camouflage Pattern costing $5 billion to develop and make, then gets ditched because it sucked feels like a bigger story. How does that happen.... Isn't that the military's main interface with the world.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    The $10,000 toilets predated usable 3D printers
    - jfengel 5y ago
      It predates half the people on HN. It's a weird kind of "these guys did this bad thing that one time 40 years ago and that's the last thing I need to know". The US government and military do plenty of things badly, and plenty of things well, and practically none of the people discussing them have any idea what either category actually contains.
- _nalply 5y ago
  You know some people got a blank check and went on a rampage. And if asked they invent justifications and requirements and generally fire smoke grenades to confuse the public.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Defense audits of how you spend the money are no joke. I guarantee that all the justifications were thought of ahead of time and used to justify the exact amount they requested.
    - _nalply 5y ago
      Audits are a way to earn money. Don't forget to charge by time and effort then charge for time spent for being audited. Additionally as always with complex regulations and specifications there are ways to comply maliciously. This means comply by letter but charge for bullshit. Another bonus are hurdles to enter the market for your competitors. If they don't know how to talk with government and comply they can't sell to government. This makes things expensive for government.

HWR_14 5y ago

The example I'm aware of is that the toilet seats needed to be a specific shape to fit in a specific aircraft, and that they only needed 1XX of them. The $20,000 price tag is because they had to pay for molds, testing, various other fixed costs required to operate, etc.

aaron695 5y ago
This article talking about this sells it as they managed to get the cost down through 3D printing, I'm absolutely willing to bet it cost the Airforce way more than contracting it out. The cost of a commercial 3d printer with security, to autocad it up, training staff, sending people into the field to measure it. To have a trained air force employee designing toilet seats is questionable, is that what the military should do? Maybe and the air force should explore 3D printers, so it's a waste that might be worth it. But lets not pretend $10,000 went to $300. The Air Force’s $10,000 toilet cover - https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-air-forces-10000-toilet-cover/2018/07/14/c33d325a-85df-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-... I wonder if there are any follow ups on what else they 3D printed?
- foerbert 5y ago
  After reading this, I think I've actually changed my mind a bit - not that I ever had a super strong opinion. But now I'm thinking that yes - we absolutely want the military occasionally doing things like going out and designing their own toilet seat. The military is kind of an odd organization. As the world in general increasingly specializes, the military doesn't. Not really. At the end of the day the military is there to "interface" with the rest of the world - and that's basically been how it was and how it's going to continue to be. Them having knowledge of how things - even toilet seats - are manufactured could be legitimately useful in their military function. It's essentially letting them get a first-hand view on how the world - particularly in terms of manufacturing - works. What steps, technology, infrastructure, etc etc are required to build things? Ideally of course they would, and still should, get subject matter experts in to advise them for strategy and planning and all that. But it's somewhat naive to suggest this is likely to work perfectly all the time. It rarely does, because humans are going to human. If they can get some hands on experience it gives them some trusted internal people who can better communicate with the subject matter experts and ultimately reach better conclusions.
  - aaron695 5y ago
    DARPA did kinda try and automate sewing - https://www.wired.com/2012/06/darpa-sweatshop/ https://www.wired.com/2012/06/darpa-sweatshop/ Uniforms are billions of dollars. I think what's important is not they bought 3 toilet seats for $10,000 on planes that costs $100,000 a hour to fly. Universal Camouflage Pattern costing $5 billion to develop and make, then gets ditched because it sucked feels like a bigger story. How does that happen.... Isn't that the military's main interface with the world.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  The $10,000 toilets predated usable 3D printers
  - jfengel 5y ago
    It predates half the people on HN. It's a weird kind of "these guys did this bad thing that one time 40 years ago and that's the last thing I need to know". The US government and military do plenty of things badly, and plenty of things well, and practically none of the people discussing them have any idea what either category actually contains.
_nalply 5y ago
You know some people got a blank check and went on a rampage. And if asked they invent justifications and requirements and generally fire smoke grenades to confuse the public.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Defense audits of how you spend the money are no joke. I guarantee that all the justifications were thought of ahead of time and used to justify the exact amount they requested.
  - _nalply 5y ago
    Audits are a way to earn money. Don't forget to charge by time and effort then charge for time spent for being audited. Additionally as always with complex regulations and specifications there are ways to comply maliciously. This means comply by letter but charge for bullshit. Another bonus are hurdles to enter the market for your competitors. If they don't know how to talk with government and comply they can't sell to government. This makes things expensive for government.