4 ms·

Do you mean you don't understand why American's would think that America has done incredible things, or do you not believe America has done incredible things?

by adampk 5y ago

SahAssar 5y ago
Neither, the term refers to the belief that the US is somehow inherently different from other nations, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). I'm not saying that America hasn't done great things, or that Americans shouldn't believe they have done great things. It's just that no country is unique in this manner, and Americans seem to often say they are in ways that I rarely see other countries do.
- skissane 5y ago
  The rhetoric of American exceptionalism annoys me a lot. But occasionally I think it has some justification. And I think SpaceX is one of those rare cases. I just can't see a firm like SpaceX existing in any other country. The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding for private space ventures, which I doubt you will find anywhere else.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding […] Yes. And none of those things are historically unique. They just happen to be true now in the US, partly because the US is the large economy in the world. But those things were true during different times in history in other countries. Do you think it was a coïncidence that the Industrial Revolution kicked off in the UK, when they just happened to be one of the larger economies in the world at that time? Where did all the early research in electricity happened, in the US? Do you think Volta, Ampère, or Hertz are American names? Or the concept of interchange able parts (see the book The Perfectionists by Winchester)? Where was the internal combustion engine invented? The American space program was kickstarted by a bunch Germans. Of course culture helps as well. Britain actually lost its initial lead in the chemical industry, even though things started there: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine Fiddling with industrial chemicals was poo-pooed by the British intelligentsia, so the industry in Germany ended up surpassing Britain (e.g., BASF). See the book Mauve by Simon Garfield for a pretty good history on this: * https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ It may be that the US has the go-go culture now that other countries used to have. What is happening now in the US is a great thing, but to call "unique" is an insult to countless historical figures IMHO.
    - mrDmrTmrJ 5y ago
      Historically, all three of the examples you site (Industrial revolution in the UK, Chemical manufacturing in Germany, and current commercial space industry in the US) are exceedingly rare*. The vast majority of both countries and time periods show a total absence of new technological development. Roman agricultural productivity was under 0.1% for the entirety of the empire. [1] You're siting 0.1% historical outcomes when you look across all of the active civilizations across all of human history. The conditions in the US currently, and Pax Americana more generally, are extremely rare in the history. [1] Joel Moker's Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress. I'd also highly recommend Moker's "The Gifts of Athena"
    - skissane 5y ago
      > And none of those things are historically unique. I never said it was historically unique, if by that you mean without any historical parallel. Of course if you look at other industries and other historical periods, you will see other cases where a certain industry in a certain country has pulled ahead. And US leadership in space (or any other industry) is not guaranteed to last forever, and is in fact unlikely to last forever. But the US does provide a supportive environment for private space entrepreneurship which is unique in the world today. The US has both some unique strengths and unique flaws. It is a world leader in both the space industry and in mass incarceration. The first is something it can be proud of, and the second is something of which it should be ashamed. Neither lead is guaranteed to be permanent, so in neither way is it unique in an absolute historical sense, but in both ways it is unique relative to the world of today. > Do you think Volta, Ampère, or Hertz are American names? I feel like you are arguing, not against anything I actually said, but things you are imagining I said. I'm not an American. I'm perfectly capable of being critical of the US (there is much I could say on that topic) but I also think it has its strengths and SpaceX is evidence of some of them.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). Having had a bit of a ground-level view of this going back over a decade, yes, America is exceptional in this respect. Lots of people tried to do private launch overseas. Trivial barriers like explosives licenses stopped most at the gate. The sole success stories are in the U.K. (Skyline) and New Zealand (Rocket Lab), with the former stretching the definition of "success." Meanwhile, America has SpaceX, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic and a trove of others. The permissiveness and commercial latitude the U.S. government affords Americans is unique. The protections American law and culture afford private property is similarly quite extreme. These facets come with downsides. But in 2001, I can confidently say that had Elon started SpaceX anywhere but in America, it would have dismally failed.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew. And Russia beat the US to space to begin with. Yes, SpaceX could only happen in the United States. But let't not pretend that the whole American package warrants the 'favored and exceptional nation' badge that so many seem to want to bestow on it, which is what this American exceptionalism is all about. Shining city on the hill and more of that kind of crap.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew One cannot ignore that they did their later work here. Not there. As did many others whose own societies collapsed or otherwise failed them. In any case, I’m arguing a narrow argument: that a company like SpaceX could only have been founded, when it was founded, in America. Because of its certain characteristics that are an exception in the set of the world’s cultures. (One among many: its unique ability to assimilate and positively appropriate from immigrants.) That doesn’t mean it’s faultless; that’s a straw man.
      - skissane 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Do you mean you don't understand why American's would think that America has done incredible things, or do you not believe America has done incredible things?

by adampk 5y ago

Do you mean you don't understand why American's would think that America has done incredible things, or do you not believe America has done incredible things?

SahAssar 5y ago

Neither, the term refers to the belief that the US is somehow inherently different from other nations, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). I'm not saying that America hasn't done great things, or that Americans shouldn't believe they have done great things. It's just that no country is unique in this manner, and Americans seem to often say they are in ways that I rarely see other countries do.

skissane 5y ago
The rhetoric of American exceptionalism annoys me a lot. But occasionally I think it has some justification. And I think SpaceX is one of those rare cases. I just can't see a firm like SpaceX existing in any other country. The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding for private space ventures, which I doubt you will find anywhere else.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding […] Yes. And none of those things are historically unique. They just happen to be true now in the US, partly because the US is the large economy in the world. But those things were true during different times in history in other countries. Do you think it was a coïncidence that the Industrial Revolution kicked off in the UK, when they just happened to be one of the larger economies in the world at that time? Where did all the early research in electricity happened, in the US? Do you think Volta, Ampère, or Hertz are American names? Or the concept of interchange able parts (see the book The Perfectionists by Winchester)? Where was the internal combustion engine invented? The American space program was kickstarted by a bunch Germans. Of course culture helps as well. Britain actually lost its initial lead in the chemical industry, even though things started there: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine Fiddling with industrial chemicals was poo-pooed by the British intelligentsia, so the industry in Germany ended up surpassing Britain (e.g., BASF). See the book Mauve by Simon Garfield for a pretty good history on this: * https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ It may be that the US has the go-go culture now that other countries used to have. What is happening now in the US is a great thing, but to call "unique" is an insult to countless historical figures IMHO.
  - mrDmrTmrJ 5y ago
    Historically, all three of the examples you site (Industrial revolution in the UK, Chemical manufacturing in Germany, and current commercial space industry in the US) are exceedingly rare*. The vast majority of both countries and time periods show a total absence of new technological development. Roman agricultural productivity was under 0.1% for the entirety of the empire. [1] You're siting 0.1% historical outcomes when you look across all of the active civilizations across all of human history. The conditions in the US currently, and Pax Americana more generally, are extremely rare in the history. [1] Joel Moker's Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress. I'd also highly recommend Moker's "The Gifts of Athena"
  - skissane 5y ago
    > And none of those things are historically unique. I never said it was historically unique, if by that you mean without any historical parallel. Of course if you look at other industries and other historical periods, you will see other cases where a certain industry in a certain country has pulled ahead. And US leadership in space (or any other industry) is not guaranteed to last forever, and is in fact unlikely to last forever. But the US does provide a supportive environment for private space entrepreneurship which is unique in the world today. The US has both some unique strengths and unique flaws. It is a world leader in both the space industry and in mass incarceration. The first is something it can be proud of, and the second is something of which it should be ashamed. Neither lead is guaranteed to be permanent, so in neither way is it unique in an absolute historical sense, but in both ways it is unique relative to the world of today. > Do you think Volta, Ampère, or Hertz are American names? I feel like you are arguing, not against anything I actually said, but things you are imagining I said. I'm not an American. I'm perfectly capable of being critical of the US (there is much I could say on that topic) but I also think it has its strengths and SpaceX is evidence of some of them.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). Having had a bit of a ground-level view of this going back over a decade, yes, America is exceptional in this respect. Lots of people tried to do private launch overseas. Trivial barriers like explosives licenses stopped most at the gate. The sole success stories are in the U.K. (Skyline) and New Zealand (Rocket Lab), with the former stretching the definition of "success." Meanwhile, America has SpaceX, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic and a trove of others. The permissiveness and commercial latitude the U.S. government affords Americans is unique. The protections American law and culture afford private property is similarly quite extreme. These facets come with downsides. But in 2001, I can confidently say that had Elon started SpaceX anywhere but in America, it would have dismally failed.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew. And Russia beat the US to space to begin with. Yes, SpaceX could only happen in the United States. But let't not pretend that the whole American package warrants the 'favored and exceptional nation' badge that so many seem to want to bestow on it, which is what this American exceptionalism is all about. Shining city on the hill and more of that kind of crap.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew One cannot ignore that they did their later work here. Not there. As did many others whose own societies collapsed or otherwise failed them. In any case, I’m arguing a narrow argument: that a company like SpaceX could only have been founded, when it was founded, in America. Because of its certain characteristics that are an exception in the set of the world’s cultures. (One among many: its unique ability to assimilate and positively appropriate from immigrants.) That doesn’t mean it’s faultless; that’s a straw man.
    - skissane 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]