6 ms·

SpaceX has had very impressive successes, some government programs have failed or run over budget. Some government programs were also impressive, both in the US

SpaceX has had very impressive successes, some government programs have failed or run over budget. Some government programs were also impressive, both in the US and abroad. I think we can all agree on those points. The point of the GP that I (and I think many others) react to is the "Only in America things like this can happen" part. I just don't get American exceptionalism I guess.

adampk 5y ago
Do you mean you don't understand why American's would think that America has done incredible things, or do you not believe America has done incredible things?
- SahAssar 5y ago
  Neither, the term refers to the belief that the US is somehow inherently different from other nations, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). I'm not saying that America hasn't done great things, or that Americans shouldn't believe they have done great things. It's just that no country is unique in this manner, and Americans seem to often say they are in ways that I rarely see other countries do.
  - skissane 5y ago
    The rhetoric of American exceptionalism annoys me a lot. But occasionally I think it has some justification. And I think SpaceX is one of those rare cases. I just can't see a firm like SpaceX existing in any other country. The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding for private space ventures, which I doubt you will find anywhere else.
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      > The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding […] Yes. And none of those things are historically unique. They just happen to be true now in the US, partly because the US is the large economy in the world. But those things were true during different times in history in other countries. Do you think it was a coïncidence that the Industrial Revolution kicked off in the UK, when they just happened to be one of the larger economies in the world at that time? Where did all the early research in electricity happened, in the US? Do you think Volta, Ampère, or Hertz are American names? Or the concept of interchange able parts (see the book The Perfectionists by Winchester)? Where was the internal combustion engine invented? The American space program was kickstarted by a bunch Germans. Of course culture helps as well. Britain actually lost its initial lead in the chemical industry, even though things started there: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine Fiddling with industrial chemicals was poo-pooed by the British intelligentsia, so the industry in Germany ended up surpassing Britain (e.g., BASF). See the book Mauve by Simon Garfield for a pretty good history on this: * https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ It may be that the US has the go-go culture now that other countries used to have. What is happening now in the US is a great thing, but to call "unique" is an insult to countless historical figures IMHO.
      - mrDmrTmrJ 5y ago
        Historically, all three of the examples you site (Industrial revolution in the UK, Chemical manufacturing in Germany, and current commercial space industry in the US) are exceedingly rare*. The vast majority of both countries and time periods show a total absence of new technological development. Roman agricultural productivity was under 0.1% for the entirety of the empire. [1] You're siting 0.1% historical outcomes when you look across all of the active civilizations across all of human history. The conditions in the US currently, and Pax Americana more generally, are extremely rare in the history. [1] Joel Moker's Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress. I'd also highly recommend Moker's "The Gifts of Athena"
      - skissane 5y ago
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). Having had a bit of a ground-level view of this going back over a decade, yes, America is exceptional in this respect. Lots of people tried to do private launch overseas. Trivial barriers like explosives licenses stopped most at the gate. The sole success stories are in the U.K. (Skyline) and New Zealand (Rocket Lab), with the former stretching the definition of "success." Meanwhile, America has SpaceX, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic and a trove of others. The permissiveness and commercial latitude the U.S. government affords Americans is unique. The protections American law and culture afford private property is similarly quite extreme. These facets come with downsides. But in 2001, I can confidently say that had Elon started SpaceX anywhere but in America, it would have dismally failed.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew. And Russia beat the US to space to begin with. Yes, SpaceX could only happen in the United States. But let't not pretend that the whole American package warrants the 'favored and exceptional nation' badge that so many seem to want to bestow on it, which is what this American exceptionalism is all about. Shining city on the hill and more of that kind of crap.
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew One cannot ignore that they did their later work here. Not there. As did many others whose own societies collapsed or otherwise failed them. In any case, I’m arguing a narrow argument: that a company like SpaceX could only have been founded, when it was founded, in America. Because of its certain characteristics that are an exception in the set of the world’s cultures. (One among many: its unique ability to assimilate and positively appropriate from immigrants.) That doesn’t mean it’s faultless; that’s a straw man.
        skissane 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
throwthere 5y ago
Do you have some other country in mind that could support a nascent space company?
- CalChris 5y ago
  The point wasn't just about SpaceX. "A whole industry bootstrapping itself to make semi-conductors doubling every 18 months". That semiconductor manufacturing industry is largely overseas and has been for awhile.
  - throwthere 5y ago
    I don't quite follow you here. Sure, lots of (non-Intel) semi-manufacturing happens outside the US in 2021. But when the industry built itself, a huge portion was in the... USA. Just like the space industry.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    and is, oddly enough, coming back to the US. There's a semiconductor fab opening in Austin courtesy of Samsung, and a semi fab in arizona courtesy of TSMC. I guess they are taking advantage of labor and technical expertise due to intel's chandler site?
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      > I guess they are taking advantage of labor and technical expertise due to intel's chandler site? Or geopolitical concerns.
      - dnautics 5y ago
        Well yeah but there are 50 United States, they picked that one.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Russia, the EU, China. Basically every nation or political entity with enough launches to jump start a new launch program. Out of these only the US went with a private new comer. The EU choose to develop a new Ariane launcher, while China went with national program.
conductr 5y ago
It's a "standing on shoulders of giants"-type figure of speech that American's use. Like, NASA is foundational to the accomplishments of SpaceX. Many countries on Earth do not have space programs at all. Our history with space as a nation is profound to our national identity whether we realize it or not.

adampk 5y ago

Do you mean you don't understand why American's would think that America has done incredible things, or do you not believe America has done incredible things?

SahAssar 5y ago
Neither, the term refers to the belief that the US is somehow inherently different from other nations, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). I'm not saying that America hasn't done great things, or that Americans shouldn't believe they have done great things. It's just that no country is unique in this manner, and Americans seem to often say they are in ways that I rarely see other countries do.
- skissane 5y ago
  The rhetoric of American exceptionalism annoys me a lot. But occasionally I think it has some justification. And I think SpaceX is one of those rare cases. I just can't see a firm like SpaceX existing in any other country. The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding for private space ventures, which I doubt you will find anywhere else.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > The US offers a unique combination of easy access to capital, relatively low regulation, and high government funding […] Yes. And none of those things are historically unique. They just happen to be true now in the US, partly because the US is the large economy in the world. But those things were true during different times in history in other countries. Do you think it was a coïncidence that the Industrial Revolution kicked off in the UK, when they just happened to be one of the larger economies in the world at that time? Where did all the early research in electricity happened, in the US? Do you think Volta, Ampère, or Hertz are American names? Or the concept of interchange able parts (see the book The Perfectionists by Winchester)? Where was the internal combustion engine invented? The American space program was kickstarted by a bunch Germans. Of course culture helps as well. Britain actually lost its initial lead in the chemical industry, even though things started there: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauveine Fiddling with industrial chemicals was poo-pooed by the British intelligentsia, so the industry in Germany ended up surpassing Britain (e.g., BASF). See the book Mauve by Simon Garfield for a pretty good history on this: * https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ https://www.simongarfield.com/books/mauve/ It may be that the US has the go-go culture now that other countries used to have. What is happening now in the US is a great thing, but to call "unique" is an insult to countless historical figures IMHO.
    - mrDmrTmrJ 5y ago
      Historically, all three of the examples you site (Industrial revolution in the UK, Chemical manufacturing in Germany, and current commercial space industry in the US) are exceedingly rare*. The vast majority of both countries and time periods show a total absence of new technological development. Roman agricultural productivity was under 0.1% for the entirety of the empire. [1] You're siting 0.1% historical outcomes when you look across all of the active civilizations across all of human history. The conditions in the US currently, and Pax Americana more generally, are extremely rare in the history. [1] Joel Moker's Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress. I'd also highly recommend Moker's "The Gifts of Athena"
    - skissane 5y ago
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Saying that something "could only happen in America" (usually) indicates a view that America is somehow unique (as in the American exceptionalist view). Having had a bit of a ground-level view of this going back over a decade, yes, America is exceptional in this respect. Lots of people tried to do private launch overseas. Trivial barriers like explosives licenses stopped most at the gate. The sole success stories are in the U.K. (Skyline) and New Zealand (Rocket Lab), with the former stretching the definition of "success." Meanwhile, America has SpaceX, Blue Origin, Virgin Galactic and a trove of others. The permissiveness and commercial latitude the U.S. government affords Americans is unique. The protections American law and culture afford private property is similarly quite extreme. These facets come with downsides. But in 2001, I can confidently say that had Elon started SpaceX anywhere but in America, it would have dismally failed.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew. And Russia beat the US to space to begin with. Yes, SpaceX could only happen in the United States. But let't not pretend that the whole American package warrants the 'favored and exceptional nation' badge that so many seem to want to bestow on it, which is what this American exceptionalism is all about. Shining city on the hill and more of that kind of crap.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew One cannot ignore that they did their later work here. Not there. As did many others whose own societies collapsed or otherwise failed them. In any case, I’m arguing a narrow argument: that a company like SpaceX could only have been founded, when it was founded, in America. Because of its certain characteristics that are an exception in the set of the world’s cultures. (One among many: its unique ability to assimilate and positively appropriate from immigrants.) That doesn’t mean it’s faultless; that’s a straw man.
      - skissane 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

throwthere 5y ago

Do you have some other country in mind that could support a nascent space company?

CalChris 5y ago
The point wasn't just about SpaceX. "A whole industry bootstrapping itself to make semi-conductors doubling every 18 months". That semiconductor manufacturing industry is largely overseas and has been for awhile.
- throwthere 5y ago
  I don't quite follow you here. Sure, lots of (non-Intel) semi-manufacturing happens outside the US in 2021. But when the industry built itself, a huge portion was in the... USA. Just like the space industry.
- dnautics 5y ago
  and is, oddly enough, coming back to the US. There's a semiconductor fab opening in Austin courtesy of Samsung, and a semi fab in arizona courtesy of TSMC. I guess they are taking advantage of labor and technical expertise due to intel's chandler site?
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > I guess they are taking advantage of labor and technical expertise due to intel's chandler site? Or geopolitical concerns.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      Well yeah but there are 50 United States, they picked that one.
hef19898 5y ago
Russia, the EU, China. Basically every nation or political entity with enough launches to jump start a new launch program. Out of these only the US went with a private new comer. The EU choose to develop a new Ariane launcher, while China went with national program.

conductr 5y ago

It's a "standing on shoulders of giants"-type figure of speech that American's use. Like, NASA is foundational to the accomplishments of SpaceX. Many countries on Earth do not have space programs at all. Our history with space as a nation is profound to our national identity whether we realize it or not.