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If Steam Deck reaches even a moderate level of success, it will be a huge incentive for developers to make games target Linux (or, more likely, the Proton compa

If Steam Deck reaches even a moderate level of success, it will be a huge incentive for developers to make games target Linux (or, more likely, the Proton compatibility layer).

babypuncher 5y ago
I actually prefer for devs to target Wine/Proton compatibility instead of providing native builds. Native games can break over time. I have lots of older proprietary Linux games that aren't super straightforward to get running on modern Linux distros, usually because they rely on libraries that aren't included by default anymore (and sometimes not even maintained). The Steam runtime smooths this over a bit, but I still run into native games from only 4 or 5 years ago that are now broken out of the box. Proton has the benefit of being a "framework" that isn't likely to be abandoned anytime soon. It is essentially a re-implementation of a platform whose primary selling point is long-term backwards compatibility and API stability. It abstracts (or outright eliminates) most of the variability between Linux distros. Plus, games running in it can run mods that rely on DLL injection.
- some-guy 5y ago
  Ironically, many games I install on Steam run better in Linux under Proton than Windows 10 (especially from the 98/XP era)
  - babypuncher 5y ago
    I think this usually boils down to incomplete or buggy support for older 3D apis in modern graphics cards, as the fixes for these games almost always end up being to use a wrapper that translates them to modern Vulkan or DirectX like dgvoodoo or nGlide, similar to what Proton already has to do for these games.
  - techrat 5y ago
    Even brand new ones. On my Windows 10 system, Katamari Reroll wouldn't even launch. Just a black scfeen. In Proton on my xUbuntu desktop, it runs flawlessly. I tend to expect older games to run better due to Microsoft depreciating older Windows libraries and apis, but a native newly released title was surprising.
    - babypuncher 5y ago
      Katamari Damacy Reroll fails to install a dependency that is fairly common in Windows but not included by default, and gets fulfilled automatically within Proton. So the problem here is less Microsoft's fault and more the developer not doing their due diligence.
      - vkazanov 5y ago
        Well... Games are such a pain to support or port exactly because of the nature of development. For most games post-release life cycle is supershort, i.e. nobody cares about long-term polishing, bug-fixing, proper platform support. This is why Proton/Wine are such a massive undertaking.
- KiranRao0 5y ago
  I remember a Linus Torvalds video on this exact problem. I found it both blunt at insightful: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    Oh my God, Linus hit the nail on the head there. Prior to stabilising on a policy of "AppImage or GTFO", this was by far the biggest headache when it came to supporting Linux.
- schmorptron 5y ago
  Steam uses flatpak-like runtimes now that should hopefully make backwards compatibility a non-issue going forward. https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steamrt/-/wikis/Soldier-release-notes https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steamrt/-/wikis/Soldier...
- rodgerd 5y ago
  It's a sad irony that we rely on a Windows userland to get games that work for more than a few years on a Linux distro.
  - babypuncher 5y ago
    It's even more amusing when you realize that a reverse engineered open source re-implementation of the Windows userland for *nix systems has better compatibility with legacy software than actual Windows.
  - fragileone 5y ago
    Not the case anymore with Steam Linux Runtime (AKA Pressure Vessel AKA Flatpak)
WhatIsDukkha 5y ago
On reflection I'm very OK with targeting Proton. I actually don't want a closed source commercial blob TOOOOO comfortable on my linux box. I want a heavily sandboxed but performant package that runs reliably. That said, if those requirements are met and there is more performance etc on the table by doing a native/or partially native port that's great.
- yissp 5y ago
  I don't know, wine kinda just barely works as it is. Introducing another layer of complexity through sandboxing would be opening a can of worms. Like I know Chromium's GPU sandbox has caused weird bugs in the past because it prevented the graphics driver from doing something it needed to do.
- shmerl 5y ago
  Proton isn't really about sandboxing the blob though, so it's not any better in that sense than running the blob natively.
hn8788 5y ago
Proton is a bit of a double-edged sword for gaming on Linux. On the one hand, it makes a lot of games playable on Linux that weren't previously. On the other hand, some developers have said that since Proton works well enough, they're going to stop officially supporting Linux versions of their games.
- _flux 5y ago
  Think however what happens if developers start actually targeting Proton, instead of Windows. Suddenly Microsoft isn't the one holding the reins :).
  - MayeulC 5y ago
    Yeah, well. Not as long as developers use Microsoft's headers for development. OTOH, if there was a Proton SDK...
- jogu 5y ago
  I could see how one might come away with this opinion but if you reflect on the nature of video games the fact of the matter is they're inherently proprietary software. Given that video games are more art than function, I think I'm okay with that too. If we accept that video games are proprietary, whether or not they target a native Linux runtime (which no standard exists) or a Valve blessed windows emulation runtime hardly matters. We as users have no power to build these applications for a desired runtime and it's unreasonable to expect publishers to work against an undefined moving target. History has already proven that this tends to be a worse experience in the long term for Linux users and even more recently native builds can be worse than Proton builds.
shmerl 5y ago
I'd say Linux directly, since performance would be still better than in Proton. Proton is a gap solution that helps building up user base while developers still ignore the platform. I.e. some developers don't care about performance much, so they might rely on Windows builds. But others might care enough to make native versions once they see the platform as a significant target.

If Steam Deck reaches even a moderate level of success, it will be a huge incentive for developers to make games target Linux (or, more likely, the Proton compatibility layer).

babypuncher 5y ago

I actually prefer for devs to target Wine/Proton compatibility instead of providing native builds. Native games can break over time. I have lots of older proprietary Linux games that aren't super straightforward to get running on modern Linux distros, usually because they rely on libraries that aren't included by default anymore (and sometimes not even maintained). The Steam runtime smooths this over a bit, but I still run into native games from only 4 or 5 years ago that are now broken out of the box. Proton has the benefit of being a "framework" that isn't likely to be abandoned anytime soon. It is essentially a re-implementation of a platform whose primary selling point is long-term backwards compatibility and API stability. It abstracts (or outright eliminates) most of the variability between Linux distros. Plus, games running in it can run mods that rely on DLL injection.

some-guy 5y ago
Ironically, many games I install on Steam run better in Linux under Proton than Windows 10 (especially from the 98/XP era)
- babypuncher 5y ago
  I think this usually boils down to incomplete or buggy support for older 3D apis in modern graphics cards, as the fixes for these games almost always end up being to use a wrapper that translates them to modern Vulkan or DirectX like dgvoodoo or nGlide, similar to what Proton already has to do for these games.
- techrat 5y ago
  Even brand new ones. On my Windows 10 system, Katamari Reroll wouldn't even launch. Just a black scfeen. In Proton on my xUbuntu desktop, it runs flawlessly. I tend to expect older games to run better due to Microsoft depreciating older Windows libraries and apis, but a native newly released title was surprising.
  - babypuncher 5y ago
    Katamari Damacy Reroll fails to install a dependency that is fairly common in Windows but not included by default, and gets fulfilled automatically within Proton. So the problem here is less Microsoft's fault and more the developer not doing their due diligence.
    - vkazanov 5y ago
      Well... Games are such a pain to support or port exactly because of the nature of development. For most games post-release life cycle is supershort, i.e. nobody cares about long-term polishing, bug-fixing, proper platform support. This is why Proton/Wine are such a massive undertaking.
KiranRao0 5y ago
I remember a Linus Torvalds video on this exact problem. I found it both blunt at insightful: Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  Oh my God, Linus hit the nail on the head there. Prior to stabilising on a policy of "AppImage or GTFO", this was by far the biggest headache when it came to supporting Linux.
schmorptron 5y ago
Steam uses flatpak-like runtimes now that should hopefully make backwards compatibility a non-issue going forward. https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steamrt/-/wikis/Soldier-release-notes https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steamrt/-/wikis/Soldier...
rodgerd 5y ago
It's a sad irony that we rely on a Windows userland to get games that work for more than a few years on a Linux distro.
- babypuncher 5y ago
  It's even more amusing when you realize that a reverse engineered open source re-implementation of the Windows userland for *nix systems has better compatibility with legacy software than actual Windows.
- fragileone 5y ago
  Not the case anymore with Steam Linux Runtime (AKA Pressure Vessel AKA Flatpak)

WhatIsDukkha 5y ago

On reflection I'm very OK with targeting Proton. I actually don't want a closed source commercial blob TOOOOO comfortable on my linux box. I want a heavily sandboxed but performant package that runs reliably. That said, if those requirements are met and there is more performance etc on the table by doing a native/or partially native port that's great.

yissp 5y ago
I don't know, wine kinda just barely works as it is. Introducing another layer of complexity through sandboxing would be opening a can of worms. Like I know Chromium's GPU sandbox has caused weird bugs in the past because it prevented the graphics driver from doing something it needed to do.
shmerl 5y ago
Proton isn't really about sandboxing the blob though, so it's not any better in that sense than running the blob natively.

hn8788 5y ago

Proton is a bit of a double-edged sword for gaming on Linux. On the one hand, it makes a lot of games playable on Linux that weren't previously. On the other hand, some developers have said that since Proton works well enough, they're going to stop officially supporting Linux versions of their games.

_flux 5y ago
Think however what happens if developers start actually targeting Proton, instead of Windows. Suddenly Microsoft isn't the one holding the reins :).
- MayeulC 5y ago
  Yeah, well. Not as long as developers use Microsoft's headers for development. OTOH, if there was a Proton SDK...
jogu 5y ago
I could see how one might come away with this opinion but if you reflect on the nature of video games the fact of the matter is they're inherently proprietary software. Given that video games are more art than function, I think I'm okay with that too. If we accept that video games are proprietary, whether or not they target a native Linux runtime (which no standard exists) or a Valve blessed windows emulation runtime hardly matters. We as users have no power to build these applications for a desired runtime and it's unreasonable to expect publishers to work against an undefined moving target. History has already proven that this tends to be a worse experience in the long term for Linux users and even more recently native builds can be worse than Proton builds.

shmerl 5y ago

I'd say Linux directly, since performance would be still better than in Proton. Proton is a gap solution that helps building up user base while developers still ignore the platform. I.e. some developers don't care about performance much, so they might rely on Windows builds. But others might care enough to make native versions once they see the platform as a significant target.