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Re: > I have found that complaining about it doesn't actually do much good. My complaints tend to get downvoted into the Mantle, and I just get pissed off. IM

by yashap 5y ago

Re: > I have found that complaining about it doesn't actually do much good. My complaints tend to get downvoted into the Mantle, and I just get pissed off. IMO creating real change in an organization is almost never done through complaining, it’s done through pushing practical solutions in a positive/constructive way. It might not be the content of your argument, but the way you present it. This comment, for example, instantly biased me against your argument, because the tone felt complain-y and self-righteous. I think regardless of what your argument is, if you present it with this tone, you won’t be persuasive.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
Oh, I wasn't talking about in my organization (which was actually famous for Quality). I was talking about making posts in tech communities, like this one. Software Quality is not a popular topic for discussion. HN isn't too bad, but some other communities react to Quality discussions, as if I was insulting God. I've learned to just keep my opinions to myself. Even then, when I talk about my own experiences, and my own process, it is not received well.
- beprogrammed 5y ago
  The problem is, we get less of you and more of them, it damages us all. As long as you keep writing good software though, that's what really matters. We used to stand in a field where everywhere we looked we could see and hear another of us, now there's 10,000 fools between each of us, and it's rare for us to hear or see another over the crowd.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    Well, the issue with discussing Quality, is that it inevitably turns to dependencies, and that's where the "My Precious" stuff starts to happen.
- yashap 5y ago
  A touché, but regardless, I think tone and the way you make your argument matters a lot, vs. just the position you support. I personally see a tonne of people passionate about software quality on HN, and often their arguments are very well received. If your argument comes off as “I don’t use libraries because everyone else’s software is crap, so I write everything myself,” people aren’t going to respond well to that. But if you can make a convincing argument for why it makes sense to avoid dependencies in specific situations, I’d imagine you’ll get a positive reaction.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    I don't really get too bent out of shape about other folks' code. I've found that it doesn't really help my position to compare against others'. If the only way that I can justify my own worth, is to tear down others, then my own position isn't so good. But I have had issues, when incorporating the work of others. I do use a couple of dependencies, in my work; but just a couple (besides the default ones, like standard libs, and platform SDKs). That's a big reason that I don't use cross-platform frameworks, like QT or React Native. They are fine, but I feel that they reduce the quality of the user experience. I've tried using them for decades (cross-platform frameworks are nothing new), and have never been happy with the result. I am always nervous about running the critical path through dependencies. I worked on a project, a few years ago, that was completely based around a particular tool; assuming the tool would improve, and that our implementation of it would improve, as we learned more. Neither happened. In fact, the more we learned about the tool, the more we realized how unsuitable it was. That ended up being a real disaster. Basically flushed a couple of years (and several million dollars) down the drain. So I tend to stick with native, and I also write my own dependencies. I believe in modular architecture. It does have a few issues, but these can be greatly mitigated, if I have control of the whole stack. I come from an embedded background. I have worked with computers, right down to the FET junctions, and I like to know what's going on, everywhere. I'm uncomfortable relying on stuff I don't understand. I've learned to relax, over the years. Compiler toolchains are really quite good, and I don't understand them (in detail). I don't understand AI/ML, and I'm not quite to the point, where I incorporate them without question, but I think we'll be at that point, fairly soon. I'm kind of amazed that a lot of folks google a dependency, then add it as a critical path component, without a second thought. I guess it has positive results (meaning that money is made) often enough, but I consider that living a bit too dangerously, for my comfort.

by yashap 5y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

Oh, I wasn't talking about in my organization (which was actually famous for Quality). I was talking about making posts in tech communities, like this one. Software Quality is not a popular topic for discussion. HN isn't too bad, but some other communities react to Quality discussions, as if I was insulting God. I've learned to just keep my opinions to myself. Even then, when I talk about my own experiences, and my own process, it is not received well.

beprogrammed 5y ago
The problem is, we get less of you and more of them, it damages us all. As long as you keep writing good software though, that's what really matters. We used to stand in a field where everywhere we looked we could see and hear another of us, now there's 10,000 fools between each of us, and it's rare for us to hear or see another over the crowd.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  Well, the issue with discussing Quality, is that it inevitably turns to dependencies, and that's where the "My Precious" stuff starts to happen.
yashap 5y ago
A touché, but regardless, I think tone and the way you make your argument matters a lot, vs. just the position you support. I personally see a tonne of people passionate about software quality on HN, and often their arguments are very well received. If your argument comes off as “I don’t use libraries because everyone else’s software is crap, so I write everything myself,” people aren’t going to respond well to that. But if you can make a convincing argument for why it makes sense to avoid dependencies in specific situations, I’d imagine you’ll get a positive reaction.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  I don't really get too bent out of shape about other folks' code. I've found that it doesn't really help my position to compare against others'. If the only way that I can justify my own worth, is to tear down others, then my own position isn't so good. But I have had issues, when incorporating the work of others. I do use a couple of dependencies, in my work; but just a couple (besides the default ones, like standard libs, and platform SDKs). That's a big reason that I don't use cross-platform frameworks, like QT or React Native. They are fine, but I feel that they reduce the quality of the user experience. I've tried using them for decades (cross-platform frameworks are nothing new), and have never been happy with the result. I am always nervous about running the critical path through dependencies. I worked on a project, a few years ago, that was completely based around a particular tool; assuming the tool would improve, and that our implementation of it would improve, as we learned more. Neither happened. In fact, the more we learned about the tool, the more we realized how unsuitable it was. That ended up being a real disaster. Basically flushed a couple of years (and several million dollars) down the drain. So I tend to stick with native, and I also write my own dependencies. I believe in modular architecture. It does have a few issues, but these can be greatly mitigated, if I have control of the whole stack. I come from an embedded background. I have worked with computers, right down to the FET junctions, and I like to know what's going on, everywhere. I'm uncomfortable relying on stuff I don't understand. I've learned to relax, over the years. Compiler toolchains are really quite good, and I don't understand them (in detail). I don't understand AI/ML, and I'm not quite to the point, where I incorporate them without question, but I think we'll be at that point, fairly soon. I'm kind of amazed that a lot of folks google a dependency, then add it as a critical path component, without a second thought. I guess it has positive results (meaning that money is made) often enough, but I consider that living a bit too dangerously, for my comfort.