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Isn't the point that by defunding the police that they'd be relegated to spending the resources they have on the functions they're actually trained to do, like

Isn't the point that by defunding the police that they'd be relegated to spending the resources they have on the functions they're actually trained to do, like the one you mentioned?

0xcde4c3db 5y ago
Pretty much. Even outright police abolition doesn't propose simply shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, for that matter, just that we should figure out how to address crime with institutions whose central paradigm isn't threatening and committing violence. That's a tall order, and I gather there's plenty to criticize in the movement, but most arguments against it come across more like arguments against Thanos snapping all police officers out of existence.
- tptacek 5y ago
  This is pretty hand-wavey, isn't it? If outright abolition doesn't propose shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, what does it propose? That we address it from root causes by restructuring the economy to correct the injustices that lead to crime?
  - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    I'm not deeply familiar with the arguments, but it does seem to be pretty hand-wavey at this point, apart from the criticisms of the existing paradigm. But it's generally worth keeping in mind that there was a time when the case for the status quo was similarly hand-wavey. There was a time before modern policing, and it's not inherently silly to think that there could be a time after it.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      Thinking about stuff is fine, but crime is a real problem, not an abstract one, and we have empirical data to show that pulling back on police patrol presence increases it. One of the reasons nobody takes "Defund" seriously is that it punts on the hard problem: reduce officer headcount --- and then what? This gets batted back and forth where I live quite a bit, and the answer always seems to be "and then we staff up community mental health response people". But crime where I live is overwhelmingly not related to mental health response! You can't send a mental health response person out to respond to an armed carjacking.
      - Kaze404 5y ago
        I understand that criticism but I also have to say that in my personal experience, not having police available seems like it would hardly make a difference in my life. I have many instances where I have personally needed police because my life was in immediate danger and not once did I receive any help. In fact, in one specific instance the police officer in question forgot to hang up the phone and on the other side of the line I could hear them make fun of my request to a coworker. I'm not too versed on political science unfortunately, but I would be lying if I said I have any attachment to the concept of policing, because it has clearly failed me and the people I know. Edit: Of course, this isn't to say that my experience reflects everyone's. I'm just giving you some input on why people feel this way towards the police, in case it matters.
        tptacek 5y ago
        A few years ago I got mugged on my block in Oak Park (which is across the street from the Austin neighborhood of Chicago). They took my phone, $12, and then ran when I wouldn't give them my bag. I called the police, and in less then 10 minutes the muggers were in custody (I like to say they stole $12 from me and a device that tracked them from space). We can do dueling anecdotes, but the underlying question here is well studied. Increased police patrol presence reduces crime.

Isn't the point that by defunding the police that they'd be relegated to spending the resources they have on the functions they're actually trained to do, like the one you mentioned?

0xcde4c3db 5y ago

Pretty much. Even outright police abolition doesn't propose simply shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, for that matter, just that we should figure out how to address crime with institutions whose central paradigm isn't threatening and committing violence. That's a tall order, and I gather there's plenty to criticize in the movement, but most arguments against it come across more like arguments against Thanos snapping all police officers out of existence.

tptacek 5y ago
This is pretty hand-wavey, isn't it? If outright abolition doesn't propose shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, what does it propose? That we address it from root causes by restructuring the economy to correct the injustices that lead to crime?
- 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
  I'm not deeply familiar with the arguments, but it does seem to be pretty hand-wavey at this point, apart from the criticisms of the existing paradigm. But it's generally worth keeping in mind that there was a time when the case for the status quo was similarly hand-wavey. There was a time before modern policing, and it's not inherently silly to think that there could be a time after it.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    Thinking about stuff is fine, but crime is a real problem, not an abstract one, and we have empirical data to show that pulling back on police patrol presence increases it. One of the reasons nobody takes "Defund" seriously is that it punts on the hard problem: reduce officer headcount --- and then what? This gets batted back and forth where I live quite a bit, and the answer always seems to be "and then we staff up community mental health response people". But crime where I live is overwhelmingly not related to mental health response! You can't send a mental health response person out to respond to an armed carjacking.
    - Kaze404 5y ago
      I understand that criticism but I also have to say that in my personal experience, not having police available seems like it would hardly make a difference in my life. I have many instances where I have personally needed police because my life was in immediate danger and not once did I receive any help. In fact, in one specific instance the police officer in question forgot to hang up the phone and on the other side of the line I could hear them make fun of my request to a coworker. I'm not too versed on political science unfortunately, but I would be lying if I said I have any attachment to the concept of policing, because it has clearly failed me and the people I know. Edit: Of course, this isn't to say that my experience reflects everyone's. I'm just giving you some input on why people feel this way towards the police, in case it matters.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        A few years ago I got mugged on my block in Oak Park (which is across the street from the Austin neighborhood of Chicago). They took my phone, $12, and then ran when I wouldn't give them my bag. I called the police, and in less then 10 minutes the muggers were in custody (I like to say they stole $12 from me and a device that tracked them from space). We can do dueling anecdotes, but the underlying question here is well studied. Increased police patrol presence reduces crime.